Conservatives joke that progressives just blow with the wind from one controversy to the next. But I can’t help but notice the anti-Biden “left” shifted hard from Genocide Joe to Bad debate Performance without skipping a beat or looking back.
Almost like the people stoking these fires don’t really care about left issues at all.
russian troll farms be out here like
“no we’re innocent socialists!” “democrats aren’t progressive enough and therefore must be defeated” “you can’t accuse me of parroting russian disinformation talking points just because I’m using the same words and arguments”
I love how anyone who disagrees with you is a Russian troll. You go around insulting people and then try to claim the high ground. Grow up.
Not everyone, just the people who are spreading lines known to originate from Russian trolls.
Someone feeling seen?
They’re only talking about things Russian troll farms do, not pointing at anyone in particular. Feels like this might be a self report
I love how you try to victimize yourself by twisting what others say to turn it into an all-encompassing blanket statement that you can then use as an excuse to permit yourself to use blanket statements in your own accusations.
Without ever even acknowledging the hypocrisy.
Accelerationism is a position that is literally only possible to hold from a position of privilege.
I’m sure crashing through the decline into fascism looks like a great idea when you know you’re high enough on the kill list to avoid the actual consequences of fascism happening.
The white left never saw us as allies, only as fodder.
Accelerationism is a position that is literally only possible to hold from a position of privilege.
And boy do they get butthurt when you tell them that they’re privileged.
I got one person really indignant with me when I called them privileged because they were pushing accelerationist bullshit about Palestinians being genocides because they didn’t have to deal with the results of their rhetoric.
I’ve seen the same in someone I know personally. He’s a pacifist, and being against funding Ukraine is at least consistent with that, if completely shortsighted and demonstrating how pacifism is an end goal, not praxis that we can do right now. He’s also smart enough to realize what a losing argument that is and focuses on Palestine instead.
I’m not sure of the term for this, but I’ll call it “billionaire blindness”. Not blindness to billionaires but a blindness that affects billionaires. And it works like this: because they overestimate their own abilities – their ego cannot handle the large part that luck played in their success – they correspondingly underestimate the abilities of their lackeys.
In this particular context, they vastly underestimate their political pawns. They fail to realize that once Trump and Taylor-Green and cohorts gain dictatorial powers, then those former lackeys will become the masters. To quote Jello Biafra, “In the real fourth reich you’ll be the first to go.” I don’t know what we’ll call it tho. “Night of Long Knives” is too poetic.
White self proclaimed socialists and leftists who will theory their way all around why it’s everyone else’s job to praxis in even the bare minimum ways, and who see queer folks and PoC effectively as pawns to throw into the meat grinder of fascism until it eventually chews its teeth out.
See also, when the french communists outed immigrant resistance leaders to the retreating Nazis to take all the credit with the dead unable to correct the record for themselves.
I understand your definition and can relate to this being a (privileged) element of left discourse. That being said I question if your attribution of this definition to a broader category of your own making… “the white left” is helpful to anyone. If you feel it is keep throwing it around I guess
“Progressives” with enough privilege that they think that if it comes down to it, they can always bend the knee to avoid the wall.
These people tend to be rabidly accelerationist, cause it’s not their lives and livelihoods on the line.
This line of thinking allows you to be an ideological purist and denounce any incrementalism or harm reduction as antithetical to the cause, stirring up infighting.
It also happens to be an excellent strategy outlined in the CIA’s saboteur handbook. (Literally, Google it, download the PDF from CIA.gov)
I think it’s funny that people think you can just change nominees at this point and still have a chance at winning the contest.
Would you mind elaborating on this? Polls don’t favor Biden right now and obviously his debate performance was really REALLY bad. I mean, if he’s the nominee, you gotta vote for him, but I’m curious why you think it’s so crazy that a person would feel like another Democratic nominee has a better shot. Especially considering how dissatisfied almost everyone in the country is regarding the two choices we have before us, and how often the explanation of that dissatisfaction ends up being because of age.
I think it’s a pretty reasonable take to want someone other than Biden to run, considering those things I mentioned. Even if you personally think another candidate besides Biden kills the chances of us beating Trump, why do you think it’s so absurd of a position to want someone to take Bidens place?
It seems right now your position, that Biden is the only chance we have against Trump, is the one that is kinda illogical, but I’m curious what your take on that is because there’s a chance I’m not accounting for something big, like the logistics of getting a replacement candidate in there and publicized.
Because Biden is currently doing a good job as president and the poll you linked show Trump and Biden polling within 1.5% of each other.
Why would you decide to try something never done before and switch up nominees four month before the election?
That’s the position that seems illogical and almost wanting Trump to win.
I mean, regardless of whether you personally believe Biden is doing well as President, that doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the general population’s disposition toward him. And also, I just averaged the spread of each general election poll listed on that site, all of which have Trump leading.The number came out to 4.63%. That’s kinda a far cry from 1.5% that you mentioned.
Let me be clear. I do not want Trump to win. Please do not put that in my mouth. Thinking he will win and actively hoping and voting for him are not the same. I do not want to be right in my feeling that he will win.
Why try something that’s never been done before? Well, I think Trump broke politics already. We are already in unprecedented territory regarding presidential power, this particular election being between two previous Presidents, etc, so I personally don’t think the “established norm” argument holds too much water. And then you have my other arguments: The polls aren’t looking good, and we just came off a terrible debate performance.
This isn’t all to say another candidate would definitely beat Trump, or that I even think it’s a good idea to get someone else in there. But I don’t think it’s a silly or idiotic to want that, as it seems you’re making it out. I can empathize with people who feel that way, because I am also frustrated with having to choose Biden.
I was just wondering why you think its so silly, and I guess the answer is, “because it’s never been done before.” Thanks for responding.
It seems right now your position, that Biden is the only chance we have against Trump, is the one that is kinda illogical
Mmmmpretty sure that is the case. All the “replacement” talk is not something they’ve asked for input on, although there is a lot of it available should they ask. As it stands today, right now, Biden is the only chance we have against trump
Humanity fools itself into believing a lot of unbelievable things. Like there’s a man in the skies causing virgin births turning water into wine like a stage magician. It’s Harry Potter with genocide all the way down.
I consider anyone pushing anyone over Biden as part of the Trump campaign. This is a two party system. Creating indecisiveness like this is a very viable and practical subversion tactic and with Trump’s Kremlin backers as the Russian candidate as Putin’s puppet, anyone that fails to recognise this ploy is being foolish and falling for their nonsense. The Platonic sophism tactic is hard for the simple minded to see through. Unplug from the news cycle and think for yourself outside of the sophist spin doctor nonsense. Ask your own questions and seek out those answers without distraction and exercise skepticism about all sources. If your general media leads your thoughts, you have no real thoughts of your own.
A list crypto-Trumpists:
- The New York Times: “If the race comes down to a choice between Mr. Trump and Mr. Biden, the sitting president would be this board’s unequivocal pick. That is how much of a danger Mr. Trump poses. But given that very danger, the stakes for the country and the uneven abilities of Mr. Biden, the United States needs a stronger opponent to the presumptive Republican nominee. To make a call for a new Democratic nominee this late in a campaign is a decision not taken lightly, but it reflects the scale and seriousness of Mr. Trump’s challenge to the values and institutions of this country and the inadequacy of Mr. Biden to confront him.”
- David Remnick of The New Yorker: “For him to remain the Democratic candidate, the central actor in that referendum, would be an act not only of self-delusion but of national endangerment. It is entirely possible that the debate will not much change the polls; it is entirely possible that Biden could have a much stronger debate in September; it is not impossible to imagine that Trump will find a way to lose. But, at this point, should Biden engage the country in that level of jeopardy? To step aside and unleash the admittedly complicated process of locating and nominating a more robust and promising ticket seems the more rational course and would be an act of patriotism. To refuse to do so, to go on contending that his good days are more plentiful than the bad, to ignore the inevitability of time and aging, doesn’t merely risk his legacy—it risks the election and, most important, puts in peril the very issues and principles that Biden has framed as central to his Presidency and essential to the future.”
- The Economist: “There are a lot of arguments for resisting such a drastic step, but the main one is that the election is barely four months away. That may be enough time for Mr Biden to recover in the polls. But with the Democratic convention in August, it would be too brief for the party to find another candidate who could campaign and win. Replacing him could divide Democrats at a time when they need to stay united. Those assertions may have been convincing once. Not any more.”
- Chicago Tribune
- The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
You’re underplaying the severity of his failure. All of these publications understand what you’re saying. Every single one of them know that creating uncertainty now is risky, but in their calculations, it’s worth it. I, ultimately, think they are wrong, but calling them part of the Trump campaign just has to be something only someone trying to win internet points would say.
I’ll end by quoting Steve Bannon Pod Save America co-host Jon Favreau, “Anyone who says this is easy or that we shouldn’t have this debate is not being honest.”
Nancy fucking pelosi is questioning his candidacy, is she a paid Russian troll? This is high stakes situation that we need to discuss and calling anyone who disagrees with you a Russian troll or crypto trump supporter is counter-productive and serves only to divide two groups who both want to stop fascism. To do that both sides need to recognize the validity of each other’s arguments and move from there not dismiss them as foolish.
Nancy isn’t questioning Joe’s health that quote is mis interpreted. She is responding to a reporter who asked her that question and she said it’s a fair question to ask of both candidates. Here is the full response so you can make your own mind up.
“So he has a vision. He has knowledge. He has judgment. He has a strategic thinking and the rest. He has a bad night. Now, again, I think it’s a legitimate question to say, is this an episode or is this a condition? And so when people ask that question, it’s legitimate of both candidates, because what we saw on the other side was a line of just, you know, I tore up his speech when he lied to the Congress on every single page of his State of the Union.”
It would only work in some kind of magical scenario.
Magic 1) Biden agrees to … revoke his renomination or whatever.
Magic 2) The Dems can produce an actually good candidate.
Its maybe possible that Biden would step down, as in 1% chance, but they’d just run with Kamala, who would lose.
Why would that not be the case? People despise both candidates, a new candidate free of all Biden’s bullshit would be nothing but good.
At this point I’m convinced people who reject the idea of Biden stepping down want a Democratic loss in November. There’s no one actually this committed to Joe Biden.
Biden, the current president, is actually doing a pretty good job.
Who would you suggest take over?
Agreed, I’m getting pretty sick of morons on the left holding him to unreasonable standards. So what, he had a bad performance at a debate. That doesn’t mean his politics aren’t good, that doesn’t mean he didn’t do a fine job as president. He isn’t an existential threat to America like Trump is.
He’s doing an alright job, but it doesn’t matter what I think, or what you think, it matters what the country as a whole thinks and his approval ratings are lower then Trump’s were at the depths of covid
As for who would replace him, looks like Michelle Obama’s got the best chance but even with the others it seems, besides Kamala, they suffer more from lack of name recognition since they put more voters in the don’t know. If Biden would open the question up and allow them to “campaign” up into the convention maybe we could get a clearer sense of what people want. Maybe it is Biden but with the lack of a real primary this season and his decline in the polls we don’t know.
Biden, the current president, is doing a milquetoast job. In fact, most of the things I hate about the current administration, like their bizarre about face on border policy and their love of genocide, have been things he’s directly worked on.
The very few precious wins this administration has achieved have been thanks to the FCC and bipartisan work done by House minority leader Hakeem Jeffries. Great wins, certainly love our government not shutting down after months of gridlock, but the kinda wins any Democrat’s administration could get.
Biden’s term has been defined by him doing the bare minimum. I think it’s fair for people to think any other Democrat could step in and continue doing the bare minimum.
Anyone/anything. A dog, a pile of sawdust, don’t care as long as it’s not a genocidal right-winger.
I think there’s a shot of it only because Trump is genuinely hated enough at this point that “unnamed democratic candidate” probably could beat him at this point.
I’ve done my fair share of shutting down bullshit being spread about Biden, but he definitely got into this game way later than he should have. His golden opportunity was when he skipped 2016 to grieve, I don’t begrudge his reasons but the results speak for themselves.
Almost like the people stoking these fires don’t really care about left issues at all.
It’s pretty easy to prove that many of them don’t.
Accelerationists would be encouraging people to plow ahead with Biden so trump wins…
Not trying to maximize chances to beat trump while there’s still time before the candidate is named.
trump is a huge threat to American democracy, and I dont see any other reason why so many people insist on a sub optimum candidate except they don’t care if trump wins.
It might be different if Biden didn’t have a 37% approval rating or a 56% disapproval rating.
But people just don’t like Biden, for various reasons he’s just not popular with voters. That’s why people bring up multiple reasons why Biden isn’t a good candidate, there’s just a lot of them. And added together they might let trump win like he did in 2016
Aren’t you making the same mistake you criticize here?
This issue is contentious because we’re all scared of Trump and we all know he has a real chance of winning. And the reality is we genuinely don’t know for sure which strategy can defeat him. People who don’t like Biden respond to this fear by calling for Biden to step down, because they genuinely think someone else would have a better shot. People who like Biden are doubling down because they’re afraid of a contentious replacement process or an untested candidate falling flat and they genuinely think Biden is the best option in this context.
But I don’t think there’s any reason to believe any of this stems from a place other than genuine concern for American democracy. Assuming ill intent just creates pointless anger among the left coalition and doesn’t get us any closer to actually defeating Trump.
People who like Biden are doubling down because they’re afraid of a contentious replacement process or an untested candidate falling flat and they genuinely think Biden is the best option in this context.
I don’t particularly care for Biden. He’s better than I expected, but certainly not ideal. He’s still pretty clearly the best option this election. Certainly not the best choice to run the country, but once you account for odds of success, there’s really not a viable alternative
Yeah, yeah, we’ve heard you regurgitate the same anti biden rhetoric for the last few months.
Genuine question. Why doesn’t Biden step down and let another Democrat run? Is there literally no other Democrat that could do better than Biden?
Regardless of what this tiny slice of politics you see here on Lemmy, there’s no way another Democrat has a chance this close to the election. I mean, can you name anyone who you think would do better?
Part of the problem I see is a major progressive generation gap at the top levels of elected government. Not even proper leftists, mind you, just progressives. Bernie Sanders is even older than Biden. The next oldest prominent name is AOC, who is almost 50 years younger and is only barely constitutionally eligible this year (by less than a month, even). There’s probably someone political wonks can name in between those two, but they’re not household names and would be unlikely to be able to spin up a campaign this quickly.
Decades of centrism have gutted the Democrats of anyone who could possibly stand up right now.
Maybe this is the difference between American and Canadian politics? In Canada, it isn’t unusual for a Prime Minister to step down and another person gets selected as Prime Minister. Not voted, selected, by the party in power. Biden would have been rotated with someone else by now.
During Brexit, that happened 4 times in a row! David Cameron stepped down and Theresa May took his place. She stepped down and Boris Johnson took her place. He stepped down and Liz Truss took his place, she stepped down (after just 40 days settings the record for shortest time as prime minister) and Rishi Sunak took her place. The general public didn’t vote for these people to be Prime Minister. They were selected by the party in power.
That’s why I’m sort of confused why Democrats don’t just pick someone else. In a parliamentary system it wouldn’t be a big deal. The general public are voting for a party, not a person.
Accelerationists would be encouraging people to plow ahead with Biden so trump wins…
Not trying to maximize chances to beat trump while there’s still time before the candidate is named.
I think this kind of highlights why the term “accelerationist” is a political fabrication, not an actual movement. No one I’ve met self-applies that label or wants fascism. I’d guess it’s because that term was created as short-hand pejorative to suppress or dismiss those who are trying to create real pressure or who simply can’t vote for someone so unapologetically genocidal.
I will not be voting for Biden ever again, but I will vote for nearly anyone else who might replace him because that would be enough of an indicator that Democrats can actually listen when pressed. They need to prove that if they want to win over voters who’ve been disillusioned by Biden’s genocide support.
I think you kind of articulated something that was puzzling me about how uncompromising some people are being about the possibility of Biden stepping aside and how they refuse to even entertain what a boon that would be to democratic chances in November – it’s one thing to say people should vote Biden because you believe he’s the only choice, it’s an entirely different and more suspicious thing to try and pre-empt the possibility of someone else with less baggage replacing him.
There’s signs of actual momentum in the party after the debate to try and find a way to convince Biden to step down (maybe by flattering his ego with his accomplishments or something and making him feel like he’ll have a legacy besides that of a mass murderer). I don’t see why anyone would dismiss that opportunity, given what we all know about Biden’s rock bottom approval.
I will not be voting for Biden ever again
Got it, so you want Trump to win.
