geteilt von: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/19377025
[…] I announce that our move off of wlroots is now complete and MR 6608 is now merged.
In other words, Vaxry is so unwilling to compromise or learn from others that he would rather isolate his project from the broader FOSS community. That says a lot about him and the people who support him, especially since this conflict with freedesktop.org started over Vaxry condoning hateful trolling of trans people within the Hyprland community.
This is a problem for me as a Hyprland user because if I share some rice I made or make suggestions for other users, I’m leading people into a community that may be actively hateful towards them. It utterly extinguishes any enthusiasm I have for the project. I like the software but I’d rather be part of a project and a community that I can feel good and excited about. Maybe time to find a new tiling Wayland compositor.
if I share some rice I made
FYI: rice is derived from a racist pejorative term. A lot of people in the desktop theming community have stopped using it.
I feel that like idiot, “ricing” is far enough removed from its roots that its fine. Thats just my opinion though
As someone who found out it’s origin by casually using it in reference to my asian buddy’s PC, I’m here to let you know it’s not.
It’s so ironic how many downvotes this is getting in the context of this thread.
Mostly because the “reddit mentality” has already established in this community, where the downvote exists solely as a self-validation/“dopamine fix” feature rather than flagging a post as bad and irrelevant.
My partner is Korean, and I asked her if she thought this was racist. She said “it is (technically), but who is getting offended by that?”
I never used the term in the first place, but if I did, I wouldn’t stop saying it because I know about its past.
I’m fully convinced that anyone who is sincerely offended by that term is looking for something to be offended by.
I don’t waste my time thinking about how “smooth brain” is offensive to people who literally have a smooth brain.
I don’t waste my time dictating to the English; their colloquial term for a “cigarette” is inappropriate nowadays.
And I don’t waste my time replying to comments on Lemmy regarding semantics.
Oh, wait…
Languages evolve over time. The term “to serve” is derived from the Latin word for “slave”. That does not mean it’s somehow offensive to use the term to describe the job of soldiers.
The modern day “riced” comes from “R.I.C.E” which stands for “race inspired car enhancement”. If you rice a car, it means you put components that look like race car components but are actually just cosmetic. Fake vents, huge spoilers on family cars, exhausts that are optically bigger, etc. The orange Japanese car in the linked article is an example of that. 70s Japan had renown ricing culture so I guess that’s where the R.I.C.E and the racist “rice burner” split.
Nowadays people who use the term “riced” don’t even know that at some point in time it had something to do with Asian cars or bikes. It’s even common to jokingly associate it with the food with the same name to spite other car nerds because you can “um actually” bait someone to correct you that it has nothing to do with food. Which is obviously not true according to the article but if 99 % of people don’t know the racist origin, it’s not an issue at all to use the word.
I can’t find any source to indicate Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancement was ever a term that existed as anything other than the Japanese version of an N-word-pass.
That is to say: the acronym only exists as a means to explain why I should be allowed to continue calling your car a RICEr.
The problem here is that someone fabricated an explanation for why they should be allowed to continue to say RICE, in response to a fallacious argument for why they shouldn’t be allowed to.
The term is so far removed from any malicious origin, that some people wouldn’t even know they should feel offended, unless someone told them they should be.
Nevermind Southeast Asia is powered by their staple rice. USA is powered by corn, gasoline is goosed with corn alcohol so we have corn burners *LOL*
Wrong. This was originally technically motivated as hyprland had been limited by wlroots in the past and often had different update cycles from sway causing packaging issues.
Vaxry never condoned hateful trolling of trans people. In fact, he publicly acknowledged, and apologized for the lack of moderation that lead to the incident, said he would do better, DID better, and THEN after everything had blown over FDO tried to ego butt into his server even more.
I’ll quote Vaxry from his blog:
“Obviously, the fact that I am banned from contributing to Freedesktop - and by extension wlroots, is another big factor, and probably the one that finally tipped the scales, because I am no longer allowed to participate in discussion or contribute code to wlroots.”
https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2024-wlrootsRewrite
“I definitely am not a fan of how seemingly weak people online, especially teenagers, have become. Words are just words. Someone calling another person a “retard” shouldn’t really be a big deal.”
"I said:
if I run a discord server around cultivating tomatoes, I should not exclude people based on their political beliefs, unless they use my discord server to spread those views. which means even if they are literally adolf hitler, I shouldn’t care, as long as they don’t post about gassing people on my server
that is inclusivity
Which I definitely stand by."
is another big factor, and probably the one that finally tipped the scales
means that it is not the sole motivating factor.
which means even if they are literally adolf hitler, I shouldn’t care, as long as they don’t post about gassing people on my server
Literally means that if they go around spewing crap, they get dealt with. This is not condoning hateful trolling at all. He is on the free speech side of things, but that doesn’t mean he condones it at all. If you start posting bad crap, you get dealt with. Minor slights, are as the name implies, minor. Those are allowed but within strict limitations, if you start going full blown idiot, you get dealt with.
Fuck Hyprland, its developers, and its asshole community. Context: https://drewdevault.com/2024/04/09/2024-04-09-FDO-conduct-enforcement.html
The bread and butter for anyone wanting a TLDR:
The FDO team is right that Hyprland’s community reflects poorly on the Linux desktop community as a whole. Vaxry [the Hyprland Dev] has created a foothold for hate, transphobia, homophobia, bullying, and harassment in the Linux desktop community. We are right to take action to correct this problem.
And on that note, I condemn in the harshest terms the response from communities like /r/linux on the subject. The vile harassment and hate directed at the FDO officer in question is obscene and completely unjustifiable. I don’t care what window manager or desktop environment you use – this kind of behavior is completely uncalled for. I expect better.
Oh wow. That community is just hateful
And now in the r/linux thread about these news people are defending Vaxry, misrepresenting what the ban was about, and hating FDO.
Indicatively, this blatantly wrong comment chain is upvoted:
Is this the project where some red Hat dev started dropping legal threats from their corporate account over offline activities by third parties in unrelated communities years past?
Sort of. You got some details wrong but essentially, yes.
But this is downvoted and has replies telling them they’re wrong:
Congratulations to the hyprland project, but I definitely will not be using or contributing to the project as long as it’s an exclusionary and intolerant space.
I whole-heartedly agree with this one and I am genuinely not surprised about the behaviour of Vaxry.
To give some context around this, ThatOneCalculator (aka Kainoa, the person behind Firefish) and I maintained the AUR package for hyprland-git back in 2022. When I initially made the AUR package file, it wasn’t great (and there were a lot of points to improve these packages) but it worked mostly. Of course there were edge cases where building broke, especially this was my first bigger AUR package to maintain. With it being a -git package in the AUR, breakage is to be expected.
Fast forward about a month, a month and a half. Hyprland rolled out some big changes which caused some build errors. But because my personal life got in the way, Kainoa got sick (IIRC) and I had troubles getting the build scripts working again, so it took a few days to get this resolved.
Vaxry came complaining to comment section of the AUR package “when are you gonna get of your lazy ass and fix this shit” (or something similar to that meaning, I can’t find the original comment anymore). After that, I promptly disowned the package and let Vaxry handle it himself.
Because fuck that shit, as package maintainer, I refused to be treated like this. If you think it takes too long, sure, fine, ask if I need help, offer support, anything. But just don’t be an asshole towards people, that offer your software to a wider audience.
I went through every comment left in the AUR for hyprland-git, but I failed to find a single rude comment from anyone. Was the comment deleted by an administrator?
Yeah I think so… I couldn’t find myself as well because I wanted to get the wording correct for my post.
Vaxry (head honcho of hyprland) responds here to Drew’s referenced shoutout. Sharing for completeness sake. https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity
And his response to the FreeDesktop stuff. https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2024-fdo-and-redhat
He is some sort of a sociopath. I remember having the same feelings reading his Blogposts. But after rethinking and checking the facts it came to me how awful his own reaction was.
If you use an infrastructure as the project did, the host is allowed to define rules. In his reaction everything was framed like she as a woman would just fire against his project because of she likes to have power. The mailing list told a totally different story. After I realised his framing was again hateful and misleading, I stepped away from the project and till now all news about that.
The development of a dedicated backend is most probably because of technical reasons since wlroots caused some problems, though.
Well I was going to try Hyprland this weekend, but I think instead I will very much not do that.
I hope someone forks it from a good commit just before they replaced wlroots. I don’t know the specifics of compositor code at all, but I bet It’s going to cost them quite a bit of velocity to maintain their replacement.
I’d say, read Hyprland’s responses linked elsewhere in this thread before making any hasty decisions.
It seems (but I’m not sure, to be clear), that it was a situation that got solved, and people are still hung up on it.
It’s like that “but you fuck one sheep” joke.
None of the suggestions are even close to how good hyprland is. Like not even a little close.
I like niri, but I’ll be damned if I can get any kind of stability out of it. I’ll have myself a flawless time at home testing, but as soon as my laptop enters University Grounds it stops launching apps, or crashes, or whatever else.
Right now I’m using Gnome/PaperWM since Infinite horizontal has changed my workflow so dramatically, and Gnome is more stable for me.
I’d recommend river to anyone looking for an alternative wayland dynamic tiling wm.
I’m SO excited for river 0.4.0 as it will bring a massive architectural change which will basically allow people to build their own Window Manager on top of River. Currently, River is a Wayland Compositor with an extensible Layout Generator Process support via a custom protocol. This change will essentially make River into a hyper-extensible Window manager building system which will make it immensely powerful.
While I use river as daily driver and am very happy with it, I feel people who like Hyprland will find river to be rather limited and barren in terms of looks and availability of plugins.
I’d be happy to find an alternative to Hyprland, but it was the first tiling manager that really clicked for me and (before the community issues came to light) I spent quite some time getting it set to the way I like it. I’d love for a competent fork or similar but it is well beyond my skill level to do that.
This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.
Hyprland is incredible and hopefully there won’t be any more trouble like this
This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.
Because Vaxry didn’t like the public backlash, not because he had any moral problems with the conduct. In fact, he doesn’t mind genocide:
I think he was trying to have a philosophical point here but took the headass approach to it.
20 years ish old, living in Poland, and perma online does things to a man. Weird though to have a take like that when Polish people in particular were significant victims in Auschwitz
Aw, man. I think Vaxry’s got entrapped here.
He is saying that if nothing can sway you from an opinion, then it is a belief, including being 100% opposed to genocide.
(Please note: I don’t side with genocide!!! But I understand his point. Read on.)
I think he’s the positions armchair arguing type, not necessarily the evil type.
I can totally see him say “If a group of people’s solely reason to exist is to exterminate the rest of the human race, if that’s all they think about, if all they do is to accomplish that - induce terror, kill babies, spew propaganda, castrate humans of all races; then it’s safe to say that that group of people should not exist and it should be exterminated.”
That’s an extremely wild scenario, of course! But I think that’s what this guy is saying. We may find genocide in general heinous, but he won’t say that all genocides are bad because of thought examples like the above one.
Then the other party takes that personally, and extrapolates that Vaxry is in favor of exterminating all trans people - something he didn’t say or mean.
My two cents.
This was a Discord dumpster fire that was thankfully put out months ago.
Right, but the original mail from FDO basically said “we know about these examples of bad behavior, we want to notify you that they are definitely unacceptable and we expect to never see something like it again”. And Vaxry had a meltdown over that. Among other things, he doesn’t get why he should be held accountable for behaviors outside FDO. He has also rejected and commented negatively on the idea of any code of conduct at all for his project. Vaxry is making it as clear as possible that he will make zero commitment to oppose toxicity in his community and people took his word for it. The idea that he was punished solely for a couple of comments that happened years ago and are definitely “fixed” is Vaxry’s own misleading interpretation.
I don’t know, man. I read Vaxry’s response and I think that he has a point. There was an incident, and it was dealt with.
Then someone from redhat (because they e-mailed him with from RedHat address) told him “hey we saw improvements on you moderating your community. Great! But if you break our CoC again, we’ll ban you!” To which he replied “Uh, we don’t have a CoC, we don’t belong to your organization, what’s is this about?” And the person replied “This is not a RedHat position. And again, we’ll ban you!”
He explained this in a blogpost and posted the full e-mail conversation.
He also said that the misrepresentation got to such point that a another transgender coder made a contribution to Vaxry’s project, expecting that it would be rejected, and got surprised that her PR got merged.
I also frequent the discord server often for help with configuring, I have not seen/experienced any of this hatred talked about so much. The worst I’ve seen is bluntness in delivering a solution or just being ignored because I someone didn’t RTFM.
Hyprland is a wonderful piece of technology and I hope it continues to persist.
All of these people are just reaching lol. I also don’t understand how any of this would do benefit. Most of the people here cheering have not contributed 1℅ of what varxy did.
That drewvault guy lectures all day instead of maintaining his own projects. Why are we acting as if we are in abundance of open source devs/maintainers.
My opinion: let’s separate the software and the people making it. If it’s great tool and FOSS why not use it? You use software, not people.
EDIT: I know that FOSS heavily relies on community but also that’s the point. I don’t see how toxic comminity can progress further while more open minded and kind fork will be a better choice of the same software base.
What if you need to file a bug? What if you have a question on the config that’s not easily answered by the docs? If you never, ever find bugs and never, ever have questions, then sure, separate the two. There are genuinely people like that, but they’re not common. If you’re one of them, then I’m genuinely glad for you.
My opinion is this: You use software. You don’t use people, but you sure as hell rely on them.
Which is why you should only care about the personal opinion of those people when it actually relates to that reliability.
I don’t care whether Linus Torvalds likes disrespecting whichever company or people he might want to give the middle finger to, or throw rants in the mailing list or mastodon to attack any particular individual, so long as he continues doing a good job maintaining the kernel and accepting contributions from those same people when they provide quality code, regardless of whatever feelings he might have about whatever opinions they might hold.
You rely on the performance of the software, the clarity of the docs, the efficiency of their bug tracking… but the opinions of the people running those things don’t matter so long as they keep being reliable.
Since this change is entirely a result of the bad behavior of the maintainer and would not have happened otherwise, this a perfect example of why we fundamentally cannot separate the work from the people who make it.
Even if you do not agree with the social backlash this person is getting, that backlash has real effects on the work.
I, for one, no longer trust that hyprland will remain a well-maintained piece of software given that the maintainer would rather increase their maintenance burden and diverge from using common tools instead of cooperating with the community.
“Let’s remove the social element of our social movement”
Great so what’s left at that point, the free value FOSS provides to corporations?
If it’s great tool and FOSS why not use it? You use software, not people.
I didn’t write about its user base, I wrote about its community – the cesspool that engages among each other. That said, the moment someone opens a bug report, there’s a real chance that person gets harassed.
The thing about Foss is that it’s typically community oriented. You are not only able to contribute and participate, but you’re invited to do so.
And if you’re an asshole and your community is toxic then who cares if your code is good? There are other projects I’d rather participate in. Cuz you’re not that good.
That’s correct, but sometimes in that sense you don’t engage with anyone and just read the docs. Also there are some cases when main contributors were toxic or unhelpful in a long run that community decided to create independent fork that’s more FOSS driven, not by elitism driven.
I have contributed to other projects without really needing to get involved in their community in any personal/parasocial level, though.
I just make a pull request and when the code was good it was accepted, when not it got rejected. Sometimes I’ve had to make changes before it getting merged, but I had no need to engage in discussions on discord or anything like that. I’ve been in some mailing lists to keep track on some projects, but never really engaged deeply, specially if it goes off-topic.
If I find that a good code contribution is rejected for whatever toxic reason, then the consequence of that is the code would stop being as good as it could have (because of the contributions being rejected/slowed down), so it’s then that forking might be in order. Of course the code matters.
Would be great, but some people are really strange. Especially bad if you have to let go of the work of some people, because you cant do it on your own.
People should learn to separate technically impressive projects from the people running them. I’m not going to contribute or financially support the project, but I’m not going to stop using Hyprland because of its creator’s views and conduct. With that said, this stuff certainly doesn’t spark enthusiasm…
I wasn’t criticising your comment, sorry if that’s what it looked like. It was just what came to mind reading a bunch of comments saying they’re abandoning Hyprland because of the controversies. Probably should have just replied to the post itself instead of your comment…
Fuck stupid idiots, who can’t separate developers from their software.
Aside from pointless agression: I don’t use Hyprland and never had, it’s too bleeding-edge for me, but if you think that every developer is an angel, then you are sadly mistaken. Being a good dev doesn’t mean being a good person or a good community manager. You should probably stop using almost every piece of software you already use, because assholes are everywhere.
Does this have something to do with the author being banned from freedesktop?
People keep saying this happened only because vaxry got banned from the FDO, completely forgetting the fact that hyprland has used their own modified fork of wlroots for ages now. They’ve wanted to get away from wlroots even before this whole fiasco, it really just tipped the needle for them to finally pull the trigger.
Mind you also, the ban in no way prevents hyprland from using wlroots still. The only thing the ban did was prevent vaxry from contributing to wlroots upstream, which is damn unfortunate if you ask me.
You believe his “fuck you guys, wlroots sucks anyway” blog post? In that case I have a wonderful bridge for sale that you might be interested in.
Imagine having to rebase your entire project because you’re a piece of shit.
Vaxry, the main dev of Hyprland, got banned from all aspects of freedesktop.org for multiple CoC violations.
