With these new rules, FIDE has managed to
- Imply the mental inferiority of women
- Validate the existence of transgender men
- Destroy the integrity of awards record-keeping
- Call transgender women men
Very nice, FIDE, incredible mental gymnastics performance! 👏 Add them to the ever lengthening sports federation shitlist.
So the argument about physical capabilities used to ban trans women from sports was bullshit and it was all actually transphobia?! Color me shocked
Well… no. There are maybe 50 women total who could play in the NFL, mostly as kickers. In basketball, women use a smaller ball because their hands are just smaller. Someone who’s FTM is probably not going to be able to compete.
There are enduring advantages from living most of your life pumped with testosterone. But there’s so few top athletes who transition MTF in their prime, it’s not a big problem. Just look at Caitlyn Jenner. She could still beat most women (and men) at a track meet.
Just gonna paste an old comment I made about trans athletes. TL;DR: athletic advantages/disadvantages diminish after ~2 years of HRT. There’s no good reason to exclude trans people from elite sports. Athletes already undergo testing to make sure their hormones levels are within pre-determined limits.
British Journal of Sports Medicine states 2 years after receiving gender affirming hormones, athletic advantages disappeared with an exception to running, in which trans- women had 9% faster lap times. Trans-men were on par with their biological male counterparts after just 1 year of hormone therapy.
Medscape has an interview with Joanna Harper, and advisor to the I0C on gender and sports about this very topic. In the interview she mentions a study out of Brazil that indicates a further decrease in strength in trans-women (MtF) athletes after 36 months, further diminishing any potential physiological advantage in these athletes.
There’s also something to be said about who these arguments are targeting. There are very few elite trans athletes and they already have to conform to strict guidelines on blood hormone levels and other doping tactics, just like everyone else at that level. The arguments are largely against high schoolers (children) who just want to participate in something. No one is taking puberty blockers and gender affirming hormones just to take a trophy home in high school. It’s a ridiculous argument through and through. A thinly veiled attempt to further marginalize and discriminate against a vulnerable population
The issue of transgender athletes was basically resolved several years ago when the IOC decided on two years of feminizing hormones before transgender women could compete in the female category. But due to the re-emergence of the anti-queer culture war, sports federations are re-litigating the issue and throwing science out the door.
I’m sure muscle diminishes rapidly after MTF transition, but humans are just very good at losing muscle. Height and hand size are not things that go away after transition. Basketball is obviously one of the sports where MTF people have a massive advantage, although I don’t know of any studies on it. It depends massively on the sport.
Of course in professional leagues everyone is genetically unique. Saying “no this particular genetically unique person is unfair” is a bit weird.
athletic advantages/disadvantages diminish after ~2 years of HRT
This is what I keep thinking whenever I hear about this “debate.” But I guess if the bigots admitted they know how hormones work, then they wouldn’t have an outlet for their transphobia.
Yeah, non-trans women don’t enjoy being forever 2nd because they weren’t born men in physically competitive sport lol.
It doesn’t take years long studies to understand a woman who transitioned well into or after puberty is still built more physiologically man than women. We will still need data about those who transitioned early and before onset. When a man transitions into being a woman then wipes the floor with every one of her peers, there’s something wrong.
You either need mixed gender sport. Male only, and female only. The regulations regarding each will have to be arbitrarily chosen until a good spot is found.
Mental sports that take near zero physical strength should have zero separations between the genders though.
It was great when women started wiping the floor with men at Shooting lol.
It’s not so great when, well, Bill Burr says it funnier lol: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ESahoCdQ28
Edit: Since people want sauce wars…
Trans athletes retaining advantages even after a year or HRT.
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764 - Jan. 5, 2021
Given that the percentage difference between medal placings at the elite level is normally less than 1%, there must be confidence that an elite transwoman athlete retains no residual advantage from former testosterone exposure, where the inherent advantage depending on sport could be 10–30%. Current scientific evidence can not provide such assurances and thus, under abiding rulings, the inclusion of transwomen in the elite female division needs to be reconsidered for fairness to female-born athletes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/ - 2022 Aug; 19
When a male athlete transitions to female, the National Collegiate Athletic Association, which governs college sports, requires a year of hormone-suppressing therapy to bring down testosterone levels. The N.C.A.A. put this in place to diminish the inherent biological advantage held by those born male.
Ms. Thomas followed this regimen.
But peer reviewed studies show that even after testosterone suppression, top trans women retain a substantial edge when racing against top biological women…
Testosterone levels are crucial but do not invariably predict performance in every sport.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/lia-thomas-women-sports.html
Renee Richards interview…
“I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me,” she said in an interview. “I’ve reconsidered my opinion.”
The council said they ultimately decided to prioritize “fairness and the integrity” of the female competition over inclusion.
The World Athletics Council plans to form a working group to consider the issue of transgender inclusion over the next year. The committee will speak with transgender athletes to seek their perspective, review research on the matter and submit recommendations to the council.
However, we do have evidence - we have 13 studies that show significant retained advantage. We have a number of other studies of males with lower testosterone levels with prostate cancer, we know what happens with training, and so I think collectively the picture is quite strong to suggest that advantages are retained.
So I would be quite confident at this point that a policy that regulates women’s sport by excluding male advantage, which includes trans women, is the evidence-based one.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/61346517 - 11 May 2022
In this study, we confirmed that use of gender affirming hormones are associated with changes in athletic performance and demonstrated that the pretreatment differences between transgender and cis gender women persist beyond the 12 month time requirement currently being proposed for athletic competition by the World Athletics and the IOC.10 This study suggests that more than 12 months of testosterone suppression may be needed to ensure that transgender women do not have an unfair competitive advantage when participating in elite level athletic competition.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577 - May 17, 2021
Responded to a comment above yours with sources etc. There’s no good reason to exclude trans athletes from sports. Benefits diminish to a negligible point after ~2 years of hormone therapy. I do agree with you that the chess thing is ridiculous though
Thanks for the update.
I’ve also went and provided numerous and a variety of sources, direct studies, and reputable news sites disagreeing with the nearly decade old science the ALWAYS RIGHTEOUS OLYMPIC COMMITTEE based their decision on from an apparently single cherrypicked study in 2015?
I’d agree it looks like a 2 year wait requirement is a much better factor than the current single year though. Until then though, it needs changed. Then we will need more refuting the current I’ve linked above which shows pretty handily across the board that MtF athletes retain advantages well after a year and longer.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=2ESahoCdQ28
https://piped.video/watch?v=2ESahoCdQ28
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
@iridaniotter @BarrelAgedBoredom
Yeah, non-trans women don’t enjoy being forever 2nd because they weren’t born men in physically competitive sport
Some sports just have totally dominant competitors. I don’t think all the men who lost to Michael Phelps enjoyed losing to him because they didn’t get to be born complete genetic freaks that look like they were engineered in a lab to win at swimming. In many women’s sports, the top (cis) competitors tend to have really beneficial genetics, including really high levels of testosterone compared to average. Losing to someone because their genetics help them be faster/stronger/taller is just how it goes in competitive sports. Losing to a trans woman is no different than losing to a cis woman who hit the genetic lottery.
Yeah, non-trans women don’t enjoy being forever 2nd because they weren’t born men in physically competitive sport lol.
The way you start your post is very telling. You’d have been better off leaving out the first two paragraphs.
It doesn’t take years long studies to understand a woman who transitioned well into or after puberty is still built more physiologically man than women.
Appeal to common sense. Also, why default to exclusion/discrimination rather than starting from a point of inclusion and make adjustments from there?
When a man transitions into being a woman then wipes the floor with every one of her peers, there’s something wrong.
That is not something that has been shown to happen to any significant degree. Seems like another appeal to common sense. Are trans women not allowed to win?
I’m sure you’re just a concerned citizen who wants what’s best for all involved. 🙄
OmniDeficient
Common Sense Fallacy… concerned citizen…
So are you going to talk about the numerous sauce or???
Right, you can’t. Fallacy fallacy. I’m poking fun at the issue like numerous others have had. So the entire argument is wrong… despite…
Appeal to common sense fallacy!.. Yet it’s where almost all scientific studies come from lol. Also, just because something is a fallacy doesn’t mean the logic isn’t true lol. Black or white fallacy!
It’s only a fallacy if it isn’t true mate.
This isn’t rhetorical roulette. The simple fact is that you can’t refute the studies, you can’t refute the sources, so you refuse to change your position. We literally hang a Progress Pride flag off our porch. Like the other person below, you’re doing way more harm than good to trans rights.
Either get with the times and help, or stop trolling and ruining the perception of trans folk online by refusing reality. The current rules need to be changed. Top athletes have changed their position ex posto facto realizing how much of an advantage they had within those 2 years after transitioning for decades. Science is showing that people retain advantages after for even longer than 1-2 years. At the top levels of Sport, advantages as small as 1% is the different between even qualifying and medaling.
It’s an issue. It’s going to take time to resolve. No, swinging the pendulum too far the other direction isn’t good, it ruins arguments. Yes, you’re human just like those trolls, it doesn’t mean you should be falling for the same stick your fingers in your ears obstinance,
Why are men and women separated in chess competition at all? There is no logical reason other than sexism and transphobia. The reason the top women in the world are so far below the top men is because chess has historically been a man’s game and the history of and continued sexism has no doubt kept out women who could be just as good as the best men. I play chess regularly online and have lost to both men and women. I wouldn’t be surprised if several top chess players chose to leave fide in favor of other competitions over this.
I’m a chess fan. Men-only events were abolished in the 1980s. There are now women’s events (no men allowed) and open events (everyone allowed). In practice open events are 90% male, and the male players, especially at the lower levels, tend to fit the smelly and socially inept stereotype. Playing in them can be unpleasant for women, and women’s events exist basically to provide playing venues where women can enjoy competitive chess while staying the hell away from us clueless males. As a clueless male myself, I can get behind that, no problem. I understand and I’m fine with it. How do cis women feel about playing alongside trans women? Idk, I’m cis male and I don’t feel entitled to spout off about that. But I think they are the ones I’d want to listen to the most.
The top levels from what I can tell aren’t as bad as the lower levels, since the effort it takes to reach that level of chess tends to weed out the clueless and lazy. There is still bad stuff though, e.g. the incidents with GM Alejandro Ramirez.
You might like the book Chess Bi tch (that is the title, damn censor bot),by WGM Jennifer Shahade reviewed here , about her experiences in both women’s and open chess events coming up through the ranks.
As for FIDE, there currently aren’t really alternatives at the top levels. FIDE on the other hand is not much of a factor in lower and mid level chess. Those events tend to be regulated by national and ad hoc federations, etc.
Because it’s a restricted participation class, and like it or not the details of those restrictions are important to the participants.
If the class exists because women want it, then it’s reasonable ask women participants what they want.
If someone proposed a restricted class limited to PoC, it would be entirely appropriate to ask PoC what they think about the proposal.
Because the ‘female only’ events are exclusionary rather than inclusionary. People who want to exclude others will, obviously, want to exclude even more people who match their specific criteria in any way.
Great comment, very insightful.
Also, censor bot? Where is there a censor bot?
I griped about the censor bot here: https://lemmy.ml/post/3449468
Since men have been getting support and funding for over a century in sports and games like this, you end up with them dominating the field. Women’s categories bring in more female players that otherwise wouldn’t have a chance if the entire game was open only. But on the other hand, this enables concern-trolling over “transgender invasion”. It’s also applied questionably to sports that maybe don’t need this such as in the case of Zhang Shan & Olympic skeet shooting. It can reinforce gender stereotypes. Finally, I’d say it’s frustratingly slow at leveling the playing field.
I’ll assume you just didn’t understand what I meant so I will repeat it. Men and women can both play chess. Male brains are not superior to female brains. The reason there are more male pros in chess is because of the centuries long head start they had. To rectify this, there must be a conscious effort to boost female chess players. The current strategy to do this is to create a women’s league. At this rate, perhaps by 2100 there will be an equal mix of male and female pros, and we can abolish the gendered division in chess because it would no longer serve any purpose.
Having the current best female chess player, Hou Yifan, be at rank 55 and be the third woman ever to be in the top 100, while the second best woman, Aleksandra Goryachkina, is at rank 347, doesn’t exactly paint a very gender-balanced playing field.
I think the point is that the field should be left alone. Let players of both genders rank wherever they do. Seems odd to separate the genders for a non-physical sport.
In a way they are as there is no “men only” tournaments. There is open for all, and a few women only. You just won’t see any women in the open for all tournaments as they fail to qualify so ending the womens tournaments would just result in having no female competitors at all.
There are 16 times as many male chess players than women so men dominate the open category by sheer number alone, it’s basic statistics.
As such the woman’s category is not so much a separate thing but a subset of the open one and if nothing else it provides visibility and a competitive field where women can deal with female instead of male asshole competitors so they can comfortably be catty queen bees instead of learning how to chest thumb.
Do you think that activities that are dominated by a certain gender are that way “naturally”, or would you maybe agree that societal factors and sexism play a role too? The idea of “just leave things alone and let people do what they want” often ignores the subtle way that men and women are encouraged towards or discouraged away from those activities.
Then you will get all the top tournaments with maybe a few women, none of them will likely win (based on current ranking), which will cause possibly even less women to try chess and reinforce the vicious circle (less win also equals less money, less sponsors). Basically, after that you will get protests as well.
It’s fucking chess, a game of the mind. What possible relevance could being transgender have to a game of chess?
CHESS?!
When did sexuality mattered in a game of chess? Like do trans people get a buff at thinking or something?
The men can only move 1 square in any direction, while women can move anywhere on their row/column/diagonal. Clearly this biological difference is why they have separate men’s and women’s chess tournaments. Also, I hear trans people can double jump.
Men automatically get a +10 masculity buff. It’s widely considered an overpowred stat in chess.
Oops, you gave it away! Turns out if you make this move you either admit:
-
That you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition
-
That you want to punish transgender people for transitioning by taking away what they’ve earned and preventing them from participating in the future.
How completely and utterly shocking, that the trans people in sports “fairness” debate was just a badly put together costume for sexism and transphobia. I tell you, I’m more shocked about this than anything. Definitely.
That you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition
Doesn’t supporting gender/sex separated leagues existing at all imply exactly the same thing?
Im not too familiar with Chess, but is there gendered leagues with Chess? Cause if so that seems really weird.
Like physical sports I understand a seperation and understand the need to regulate transgendered individuals due to physical difference between genders.
But for a mental cognitive sport that seems ludicrous to do
yes - but at least there you could argue that it’s a historical relic.
I don’t think anyone could reasonably argue that the attitude that men are smarter than women (or at least, better at chess) didn’t exist previously, and that’s why they leagues are setup this way. But it’s one thing to not change existing policies rooted in sexism, and another entirely to create new policies rooted in sexism.
The former happens literally all the time, because large institutions are slow to change, and even though blatant sexism is no longer socially acceptable, it’s still prevalent in peoples’ heads. When the latter happens, it understandably causes more uproar, because it’s an active move towards more sexist policies.
Don’t get me wrong, we should absolutely get rid of gender based leagues IMO and switch to having leagues based on ability (whatever the critical ability might be for the competition in question) and call it a day - that would solve both the sexism issue and the trans issue, as there would no longer be any “unfair advantages”. What genitals a person was born with - whether they kept them or not - shouldn’t impact how you’re allowed to compete especially in an activity like chess that has no reasonable basis for gender separation in the first place
IMO you’ve hit the nail on the head.
These conflicts and confusions are the consequences of gendered leagues, but because the issues come up in the context of transgender people, it makes it seem like an issue with transgender people.
Buuut then there is the issue of the representation of women in (most) popular professional sports is much lower, and would be worse without this delineation along gender lines.
So what we need is to make up our mind if we want either:
All sports to be as fair at all times as physically possible
Or
If we want to see all genders fairly represented in popular professional sports
If it is the first, we should ungender the leagues. If it is the second, we should stop worrying about it and let transgender people compete wherever they want.
“the transphobia is because we gave the women their own space, that was our mistake”
No, it was because of transphobia
Well, sometimes it is a physical competition. You can break your leg if you do a hard enough move!
you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition
They do. There are two types of chess competition: open and women only. Women don’t do well in the open competition which is why they added the women only competition.
But it’s not because men on average have an advantage. It’s because men have a greater spread of chess ability so the very top men tend to do better than the top women.
Something to keep in mind with studies are outside social factors such as less women playing chess and less women being exposed to chess at a young age. There are fewer women in chess and fewer girls learning chess, for probably centuries. This will have a factor when comparing two demographics.
Ah here we fucking go again… 20 years of progress lost.
Chess and eSports always do that. They’re the perfect opportunity to demonstrate how, if you work on the social pressures and limitations that keep women/queer/trans people away from the sport, they can absolutely join in, compete, influence younger people, attract advertisers and so on. They can bypass the “bUt PhYsiCal DiffEnCeS” argument entirely, they’re the perfect category for inclusive sports.
But without fail, after we get some progress, they come up with some way of absolutely setting everything back with new weird regulations, changes in funding, changes in language. It’s bizarre. It’s self sabotage.
But without fail, after we get some progress, they come up with some way of absolutely setting everything back with new weird regulations, changes in funding, changes in language. It’s bizarre. It’s self sabotage.
because it’s on purpose. They’re bigots, this is what bigots do to fight social progress.
