Official statement regarding recent Greg’ commit 6e90b675cf942e from Serge Semin
Hello Linux-kernel community,
I am sure you have already heard the news caused by the recent Greg’ commit 6e90b675cf942e (“MAINTAINERS: Remove some entries due to various compliance requirements.”). As you may have noticed the change concerned some of the Ru-related developers removal from the list of the official kernel maintainers, including me.
The community members rightly noted that the quite short commit log contained very vague terms with no explicit change justification. No matter how hard I tried to get more details about the reason, alas the senior maintainer I was discussing the matter with haven’t given an explanation to what compliance requirements that was. I won’t cite the exact emails text since it was a private messaging, but the key words are “sanctions”, “sorry”, “nothing I can do”, “talk to your (company) lawyer”… I can’t say for all the guys affected by the change, but my work for the community has been purely volunteer for more than a year now (and less than half of it had been payable before that). For that reason I have no any (company) lawyer to talk to, and honestly after the way the patch has been merged in I don’t really want to now. Silently, behind everyone’s back, bypassing the standard patch-review process, with no affected developers/subsystem notified - it’s indeed the worse way to do what has been done. No gratitude, no credits to the developers for all these years of the devoted work for the community. No matter the reason of the situation but haven’t we deserved more than that? Adding to the GREDITS file at least, no?..
I can’t believe the kernel senior maintainers didn’t consider that the patch wouldn’t go unnoticed, and the situation might get out of control with unpredictable results for the community, if not straight away then in the middle or long term perspective. I am sure there have been plenty ways to solve the problem less harmfully, but they decided to take the easiest path. Alas what’s done is done. A bifurcation point slightly initiated a year ago has just been fully implemented. The reason of the situation is obviously in the political ground which in this case surely shatters a basement the community has been built on in the first place. If so then God knows what might be next (who else might be sanctioned…), but the implemented move clearly sends a bad signal to the Linux community new comers, to the already working volunteers and hobbyists like me.
Thus even if it was still possible for me to send patches or perform some reviews, after what has been done my motivation to do that as a volunteer has simply vanished. (I might be doing a commercial upstreaming in future though). But before saying goodbye I’d like to express my gratitude to all the community members I have been lucky to work with during all these years.
Later in that thread:
Please accept all of our apologies for the way this was handled. A summary of the legal advice the kernel is operating under is
If your company is on the U.S. OFAC SDN lists, subject to an OFAC sanctions program, or owned/controlled by a company on the list, our ability to collaborate with you will be subject to restrictions, and you cannot be in the MAINTAINERS file.
Anyone who wishes to can query the list here: https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov/
Which is exactly what anyone who wasn’t wanting to just snort some concentrated outrage knew was the case.
And you can argue as to if OFAC list should apply to things like this or not, but the problem is that the enforcement options for OFAC violations include ‘stomp you into the ground until you’re powder’, most people are just going to comply.
Oh hey, a reasonable comment here that actually has a decent score… These comments are wild. But given the recent… I’ll just say, conspicuously pro-Russian, turn this site seems to have taken in the run up to the election, it’s not exactly a surprise.
I’m shocked I didn’t get downvoted to shit myself.
It’s just that it was VERY clearly either sanctions or a NSL, since the Linux Foundation is in the US and the two things that result in a public entity like that making silent, un-explained changes are, well, sanctions and NSLs and you don’t say shit because your lawyer told you not to.
I don’t necessarily agree that tossing contributors off an open-source project is in the spirit of the OFAC list, but the problem almost certainly is that they’re employed by some giant tech company in Russia.
And, in Russia, like in the US, and Israel, and China, and anywhere else you care to mention, tech companies are almost always involved in military supply chains, since shit don’t work without computers at this point.
Which leads to a cycle of being unable to work with Weapons, Inc. and someone works for Weapons, Inc. so now that person can’t be worked with either and so your choices are… comply with the OFAC list, or take a stupid amount of legal risk up to and including angry people with guns showing up to talk to you.
We really don’t know the whole story and immediately jumping to “Imperialists bad!” is how certain chunks of Lemmy roll these days.
I think they’d be much happier if they all moved to North Korea and helped achieve the goal of Juche by becoming dirt farmers.
Also from that thread.
Again, we’re really sorry it’s come to this, but all of the Linux infrastructure and a lot of its maintainers are in the US and we can’t ignore the requirements of US law. We are hoping that this action alone will be sufficient to satisfy the US Treasury department in charge of sanctions and we won’t also have to remove any existing patches.
US law CAN’T apply on foreign ground, period. Nothing can. Just because they can bully their way around that, doesn’t mean they are right.
And it should be only fair that Israeli maintainers be removed as well.
They should also rethink their infrastructure policy and whether they still want it on US soil.
This is all wishful thinking, I know, but this just goes to show you how they have absolutely no backbone whatsoever. As if anybody is gonna touch the Linux kernel and jeopardize the safety of millions of systems. We all know that is never going to happen, but they still bent over for the US… so typical… just goes to show you how little backbone everyone has, including Linus.
Oh, and don’t get me started on the Russia/Finland history comment…
Does everyone here just not understand how international sanctions work?
As someone with a STEM degree in a STEM field, I’m consistently bummed out by how clearly silo’d my colleagues’ educations were. It is so plainly obvious as soon as you try to have a conversation with them about anything outside of their area of expertise.
And don’t bother trying to correct or teach them anything, because in their minds, they’re smarter than you, and you have nothing worthwhile to teach them.
This thread is full of software engineers with just no concept of how society functions, or even a basic understanding of the geopolitical context of any of this.
If the company is in the USA they can restrict who you colloborate with. They also can control what you export as a oftware product under ITAR/EAR rules. It is why when some encryotion work had to be done the devs crossed the border into Canada to work on development, because under USA law encryption code is a controlled export product even if opensource
Israel is not against the US at this point. Russia and the US are in a war with Ukraine being the middle man. Look at what the US did to Hauwei sanctioned it and forbid any us company from doing business with it. Basically none of the world could use the phones. All the tech the world is using is American so they get to say what any country can do.
But folks who work for US companies building weapons for Israel are totes okay?
It’s honestly fucking wild that an internationally developed open source project has to play by the US government’s rules when the US government is out here helping commit genocide right the fuck now.
Like, look in the fucking mirror on this why don’t you.
Maybe the better rule is that if you work for a company that produces weaponry for war you shouldn’t be allowed to contribute, period.
Wow, I didn’t know that being a Linux/open source contributor meant you don’t have to follow your country’s laws.
It’s developed internationally but devs still reside somewhere and have to abide by the rules at that place. Linux in this case being represented by an US entity means they have to follow the gov’s sanctions. If you want more or less of those, that’s where (the government) you act.
This isn’t about them being kicked out, this is about the fact we don’t know the process that resulted in this. Was this a decision Linus made after a night coding and thinking about the world? Was the foundation ordered to do it?
It lacks transparency into the process even if the outcome is fine and the way it was done doesn’t feel transparent, even if it makes sense not to include Russian coders in the project.
You may be amazed to learn that there aren’t many international sanctions against the USA at this time, but I imagine you could probably get into legal trouble for collaborating with Americans if you’re in, I don’t know, North Korea maybe.
You may be amazed to learn that the reason there aren’t many international sanctions against the USA at this time is not because the USA is a beacon of peace, freedom, democracy, and national sovereignty. Because the US is very much not that.
It’s crazy how the US Treasury isn’t sanctioning companies for working on US government approved contracts. /s
But folks who work for US companies building weapons for Israel are totes okay?
Who here said this?
Maybe the better rule is that if you work for a company that produces weaponry for war you shouldn’t be allowed to contribute, period.
This is something I can actually get behind on.
But, you see, there is just one teeency weeency tiny problem with that. They spend trucks of cash on whatever they deem will give them what they want, including funding organizations that they profit from.
It’s ridiculous how some see nothing wrong with delisting maintainers and are genuinely happy about such discrimination.
Not ridiculous. Majority of U.S propaganda is based on dehumanising people.
Also I read somewhere that this ban only applies to folk that work in companies that are sanctioned. So might not be straight up racism.
But I do agree with you. Who tf is U.S to sanction others while it’s formed on a genocide and still committing another one.
It sucks if well meaning people are caught up in this, but it also sucks if you’re living in the aggressor state of an ongoing war.
So shouldn’t this also include the US and the many countries (most of Western Europe, plus others) involved in coalitions bombing the middle east and elsewhere?
These people allegedly work for companies that work for the Russian war machine. They will regain privileges if they don’t work for them. So if they find a moral job, they’ll be treated morally.
Honestly must be incredibly stressful managing a project like the Linux kernel. Governments constantly wanting changes made for their own purposes, companies leeching off the work of volunteers, neck beards losing their minds over some change they don’t like.
I don’t envy them at all. This sort of change was inevitability going to piss people off - it could have been handled better but I think it was going to be lose/lose no matter which way it was done.
I personally think this is a cop out. Obviously people would have been outraged either way, but personally my only issue is about how it was done. The whole point of the FOSS community is openness and transparency. The senior maintainers of arguably the most important FOSS project trying to operate secretively on something like this has shattered my trust in them, as well as many others.
The senior maintainers of arguably the most important FOSS project trying to operate secretively on something like this has shattered my trust in them, as well as many others.
Basically, my stand on this.
And that it was dismissed like it was “no big deal” by Linus and some of the other senior maintainers.
But seriously, Linus’s comment regarding this was… just… I have no words… he basically put every Russian in the same basket, called them trolls and added a racist comment on top of that, I mean… yeah, I lost all respect for him. At least his previous fits were about code and only if someone fucked up something, this is completely different.
Exactly, that’s also my view. In Serge’s thread somebody else said Linus used to be his role model but now he is questioning his own beliefs. Sums up my feelings perfectly.
It sucks so bad, Linus really screwed up big time, and GKH dropped the ball as well. What kind of a hellish timeline is this?
But seriously, Linus’s comment regarding this was… just… I have no words… he basically put every Russian in the same basket, called them trolls
There are a huge number of online Russian trolls. That part of his response was not hyperbolic. They do have troll factories there to influence public opinion.
The problem is this still leads to questions about transparency about the project in general and how this decision was made and whether it was made by those involved in the project or was an order from the US government.
My main concern with this happening is how much secret control the US government has over top Linux maintainers. Many commenters say that Linus couldn’t refuse the request from the government because he lives in the US and Linux Foundation is in the US. So what other requests from the government known to put backdoors into software they couldn’t refuse in the past or won’t be able to refuse in the future?
Yes, this is exactly my same thoughts.
This is terrifying.
I don’t like what the Russian government is doing and Putin is cruel and evil, albeit intelligent (which makes him even more terrible).
That being said, in the US, government agencies can order a company to do certain things, put in certain code, or whatever and then issue a gag order as part of that preventing disclosure. And although there’s a limit to how much that can screw over open-source software users, we do not know what exploits nation-states have, we don’t know what backdoors are in different chipsets or closed-source firmware.
If a developer writing open source code can be blacklisted so easily without transparency into the process, it suggests the company is being ordered to do certain things and not disclose them by the US government, which is a government that still engages in torture.
Notice how they are not coming out and saying “We were not ordered to do this by any government agency.”
Could the foundation be forced to elevate a developer with government ties who then is able to “accidentally” put in an extremely hard to detect exploit into linux that won’t be detected at first and only patched later?
I really wish companies associated with linux were not in a country that lacked transparency with government regulations and in which gag orders were not possible.
I, too, do not want to be deleted out of existence by the US government/military and so i, too, comply with sanctions.
We have reason to believe Linus and the kernel team are not filling the kernel with government back doors (for the thing, there’s a high chance someone notices and makes it public that such code was put into the kernel by one of them). Linus has talked about refusing to do this in the past. However, it’s no surprise they’re not willing to risk the whole project for a handful of people working for Russian weapons manufacturers.
It’s pretty hard to be open and transparent when 2 men with guns and black suits are sitting at your kitchen table.
We don’t know if that happened, but given the speed this happened and the us being the us…
If it breaks that they had a long runway of knowing this had to happen, then sure bring out the pitchforks, but imo we should default to this happening under heavy pressure to act immediately.
So you realize they have no choice and couldn’t have done any differently but you’re still irrationally upset about it so you decided to become the tone police?
I don’t think it’s irrational to have wanted them to be transparent about it, but you do you I guess.
Are they legally bound to follow any sanction list in their dealings? If so Linux foundation should consider move out of the US jurisdiction, because the santion load is just going to increase and more countries will be included.
If they are just doing this because of a political fad and partaking “the current thing” then they are just voluntarily digging their own and the linux foundation’s grave.
because the santion load is just going to increase and more countries will be included.
Not to mention more stupid shit, like not being able to visit the US if your wife is Russian, cuz… you know, you might be a spy.
If they are just doing this because of a political fad and partaking “the current thing” then they are just voluntarily digging their own and the linux foundation’s grave.
My 2 cents. Nobody is asking them to do anything… yet… and they probably never will, but… they’re scared shitless and they would rather comply, even for things no one is asking of them yet and is dubious whether or not they’re even covered by the sanctions, than show some backbone.
Here’s an idea: don’t invade sovereign nations unprovoked.
(Can’t wait for the inevitable “whatabout America?!” reply. Yes, America is shit too and we deserved to be punished for Iraq… Unfortunately there wasn’t really any international authority that could do it)
Here’s an idea: don’t invade sovereign nations unprovoked.
That is a great idea! Unfortunately, not everyone has a say in that, especially mere mortals… you know, people like devs.
Unfortunately there wasn’t really any international authority that could do it
There is, the UN, but they silent, as always… at least regarding the US. We all know why…
Where should they move to? Countries that aren’t sanctioning Russia right now are likely to be… problematic? in other ways. But I am also pretty ignorant about which countries are on that list, and I would like to know more.
Maybe they need to become pirates on international water…
there are a number of countries that are neutral and unlikely to sanction anyone else, though one might argue about their democratic credentials, with a minor or major stretch. brazil, mexico, chile, colombia, costa rica, uruguay (just to name a few in latin america), andorra, malta, san marino, india, south africa…
