Philippa Foot is most known for her invention of the Trolley Problem thought experiment in the 1960s. A lesser known variation of hers is as follows:

Suppose that a judge is faced with rioters demanding that a culprit be found for a certain crime. The rioters are threatening to take bloody revenge on a particular section of the community. The real culprit being unknown, the judge sees himself as able to prevent the bloodshed from the riots only by framing some innocent person and having them executed.

These are the only two options: execute an innocent person for a crime they did not commit, or let people riot in the streets knowing that people will die. If you were the judge, what would you do?

112 points
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Let the people riot.

Condemning an innocent person to death would be the direct responsibility of the Judge, whereas the judge is not directly responsible for the actions of the protestors. Those protestors are behaving outside of the judicial system, and the judicial system may deal with them eventually, but their threat of violence should not be part of the decision-making process.

Caiaphas and his whole “it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not” thing shouldn’t really be seen as a role model for judges. Just sayin’.

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38 points

I agree also by rules-based utilitarianism. It’s important not just to consider the immediate, short-term utilitarian outcome, but to consider the utility of a world whereby we regularly make the same type of decision.

In a world where a riot is all it takes to sentence unpopular people to death, you create a perverse incentive for people to riot – or threaten to riot – in order to pervert the proper carriage of justice. Who knows how much net harm would be done in this world ruled by mob justice.

But the alternative is a world where rule of law exists, which I think is a far better world to live in.

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16 points

Justice be done though the heavens fall. It’s a very old quote, originally in Latin, it’s a core principle of a functioning justice system.

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4 points

Condemning an innocent person to death would be the direct responsibility of the Judge, whereas the judge is not directly responsible for the actions of the protestors.

This logic could be applied to the original trolley problem as well - pulling the lever is condemning an innocent person to death and you are directly responsible for it, while you are not responsible for the trolley continuing on its course and killing five people.

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7 points

The difference, and what makes the trolley problem more effective I think, is that the trolley problem doesn’t give us the framework of a judicial system, rule of law, whereas the judge has that.

I think, anyway. I only took intro philosophy classes.

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4 points

That makes sense. The original problem is “do nothing” vs. “do something”, while this version is “do something just” vs. “do something unjust”.

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4 points
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Having skimmed the original paper about the trolley problem, I think what the author was trying to illustrate was the difference between direct and indirect harm.

If you redirect the trolley, you’re not trying to kill the man on the other track. You’re trying to save the five on the first track by directing the trolley away from them. While the other man may die because of this, there’s always the possibility he’ll escape on his own.

Whereas if the judge sentences an innocent man to death, that is choosing to kill him. The innocent man MUST die for the outcome the judge intends. So there’s culpability that doesn’t exist in the trolley scenario.

In one case you’re accepting a bad outcome for one person as a side effect, in the other you’re pursuing it as a necessary step.

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2 points

True but then that’s where personal philosophy comes in. Doing nothing is still an action to me especially if I was aware. It’s rather be responsible for one death rather then several.

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1 point

This highlights why the trolley problem is in fact a problem, letting worse things happen is seen as preferable to doing a bad thing. But letting a bad thing happen when it’s guaranteed is kinda like doing that worse thing yourself, you have control through inaction.

I know I’d be riddled with guilt but I hope I’d have the courage to do the bad thing to prevent the worse one

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60 points

If you were the judge, what would you do?

Drive a trolley into the rioters

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25 points

Ah, the trolley solution.

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51 points

This is even worse logically than the premise of the Trolley problem. You’re basically reframing a terrorist or criminal holding a gun to a bystander’s head and demanding something trying to say it’ll be my fault the person dies if I don’t give them whatever they ask for.

No. It’s got nothing to do with me (or the judge). The criminals threatening violence are the bad people.

The only good “Trolley problem” rewrite I’ve heard is the crying baby and the hiding refugees. https://www.truthorfiction.com/crying-baby-ethics-question-causes-viral-controversy/

All the others are either too contrived (how did those people get in the trolley tracks? why is there no driver? why am I able to get to the lever or how do I know a fat man will detail the trolley?) Or it’s just a terrorist blaming someone else for his actions. The crying baby one challenges me on a very deep level.

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25 points

I think you’re being a little too quick to judge (no pun intended) by dismissing these scenarips as assigning blame. The point of these problems isn’t to decide whose “fault” it is or who is the “bad guy” - they are thought experiments to explore what is “right” to do, according to various schools of thought.

In the original trolley problem, or in this one, it’s totally fair for you to say “whatever happens, it’s not the chooser’s fault - they were forced into this position, and so they cannot be to blame”. That’s fine - but even if they are absolved of blame the question still remains of what is right for them to do. If your answer is “whatever they want (because engaging with terorrists’ demands is always wrong)”, or “whatever is the opposite of what they’re being pressured to do”, or “whatever is the least action”, or “whatever rminimizess suffering”, or “whatever minimizes undeserved suffering”, those are all still answers to the question, without any implications of blame or guilt to the chooser!

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20 points

The crying baby and the hiding refugees in M A S H messed me up as a kid.

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8 points

Don’t you mean chicken?

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5 points

It was actually a baby. Hawkeye just remembered it as a chicken.

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4 points

looks at you compassionately

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2 points

Messed up Hawkeye too.

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7 points

The only good option here is to imprison/kill the rioters. It’s not like there’s only 2 options in this scenario.

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5 points

Critiquing philosophical thought experiments for being unrealistic and angering you this much feels to me like you’re missing the core concept here.

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3 points

Objecting to the details of the problems is spectactularly missing the point.

You may as well object to a physics problem on the grounds that the accompanying diagram doesn’t show a real rocketship, just a drawing of one. I mean sure, but that’s not even remotely relevant to the question at hand. The illustration is just a mental aid to let you relate to the problem in a more hands-one manner, nothing more.

By what principles do we determine that benefit to one may outweigh harm to another? What are the factors that must be taken into consideration? Do the principles you name generalise as well as you assume, or are there counter-cases that would evoke a different moral intuition despite being entirely analogous?

It’s easy to come up with neat, elegant statements couched in purely abstract terms, but the entire point of the exercise is to build a predictive model of your emotional response - and you test that by considering actual scenarios.

Trying to kobyashi-maru your way around the scenario doesn’t achieve anything, and just makes it harder to test the thing you were trying to.

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6 points

The entire point of these problems is that they serve as an intuition pump for what people are morally prepared to do.

If the scenario doesn’t make sense, people will respond to it in unpredictable ways.

In the real world, if I push a fat man in front of a train it won’t slow the train down and save the lives of five people people further down on the tracks, it’ll just kill six people and I’ll be a murderer.

So when we find that people are more uncomfortable with pushing someone under a train vs throwing a switch to make the train hit them, does that mean that they instinctively don’t trust the premise and think maybe that they’ve killed someone for no reason, or that they prefer the extra layer of indirection. We don’t know, and this really reduces the value of the thought experiments.

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30 points
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Executing an innocent person is never just. A judge of the justice system must be just above anything else like politics or outside consequences.

The judge does not “let the people riot”. Saying it like that misleads into thinking so. The judge is not the active part in that. The rioters are the actors and can and must be brought to justice when they can/later.

It’s not on the judge to weigh on outsiders and outside consequences. They must gather and assess the concern at hand concerning a person at hand. Outside factors are irrelevant. Influences onto the case may be relevant, but not the other way around.

If a judge and by consequence the justice system loses it’s justice and fairness it loses all of its most important, primary, and possibly single responsibility and trust. Without a just justice system, it is bound to end up will all manner of corruption, arbitrariness, and secondary factors of no societal trust in a justice system (leading people to execute self-justice; what the example tried to evade in the first place).

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18 points

A judge is to apply the law without bias. If the judge stops doing that, then they just become a dictator and are no judge.

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4 points

There’s no such thing as “without bias”. But I mostly agree.

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