The legal grounds: The oil was shipped by a US company in violation of US law. American companies can’t do business with an organisation that the US government has designated as a terrorist organisation. Thus American authorities siezed the ship and its cargo.
I am proud that America is finally doing something about this illegal oil trade. We have always turned a blind eye, and now we are actually forcing our hand to keep Iran from becoming a potential world-ending regime with no human rights for Iranians.
Yep. Anyone can do that, actually. I can declare you a terrorist. It’s totally my right to do so, but the question is–so what? What am I going to do about it?
The US government has declared the Iranian organisation a terrorist organisation. What have they done about it?
The amount of outrage on this thread is just ignorant people learning how international geopolitics and the concept of absolute state sovereignty work for the first time. Yes, it is the case that big countries get to stick their fingers into the business of little countries. Yes, it is unfair. But that’s how it is and that’s how it’s always gonna be for the foreseeable future. That’s how it always has been for all of human history. From Ur to Rome to Vienna to London to Washington. From Chang’an to Beijing to Nanjing to Tokyo and now back to Beijing. In the next century maybe it will be some other country kicking around everyone else instead of the US. But I can practically guarantee that there will be kicking and there will be people continuing to complain about how unfair it is, because it is and always has been.
I’d like to say we should do better as a species, but in reality, what we have now is really fucking amazing compared to when Genghis Khan would come romping around town destroying your villages and murdering your people, or the Romans coming and demanding fifty talents of silver by sunset or else, or the Belgians planting rubber trees in your backyard.
we should do better as a species, but in reality, what we have now is really fucking amazing
I always say this when people say we should burn it all down. Sometimes they say it flippantly but some people actually think it’s a good idea to hit the reset button. Like it’s a good idea to go back to subsistence agriculture and hunter gatherer lifestyle. No, thanks, overall, things are actually going really well all things considered.
Some states do use their own definitions of terrorism to explain why it’s bad when other people do it but OK when they do it, but that’s definitely not a uniform definition.
the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective.
- Britannica
The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals.
- American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
the use of intentional violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims. The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants.
- Wiki
(Government, Politics & Diplomacy) systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve some goal
- Collins English Dictionary
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes… government or resistance to government by means of terror.
- Webster’s
Why is this person getting upvotes for clearly lying. Empire Navigation is based in Greece. Here’s more info: Source.
Yes. And were fined. But that’s perfunctory so that they can make more money smuggling oil. The sanctions are solely enforced by the U.S., without consent of the UN.
I’m an American that actually wants my country to act like the things it says it stands for.
The contraband cargo is now the subject of a civil forfeiture action in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. The United States’ forfeiture complaint alleges that the oil aboard the vessel is subject to forfeiture based on U.S. terrorism and money laundering statutes.
The complaint alleges a scheme involving multiple entities affiliated with Iran’s IRGC and the IRGC-Qods Force (IRGC-QF) to covertly sell and transport Iranian oil to a customer abroad. Participants in the scheme attempted to disguise the origin of the oil using ship-to-ship transfers, false automatic identification system reporting, falsified documents and other means. The complaint further alleges that the charterer of the vessel used the U.S. financial system to facilitate the transportation of Iranian oil
The legal grounds: it is ok when we do it. This is just old fashioned piracy, but of course you’ll try to justify it.
So…will they seize the companies assets and arrest the CEO for violating the sanctions?
Because that’s how you stop this shit.
Seizing over a hundred million of oil is a pretty big ouch to any business
For business sure. But what about consequences for the people who made the decisions?
Not for the shipping company. It’s not their oil. The Iranians can ask the shipping company for compensation, which they could easily refuse and there isn’t much recourse that the Iranians would have. The Chinese could demand compensation but if the company again refuses or claims insolvency or whatever, it’s easier for the Chinese to just stiff the Iranians with payment instead.
You want the United States to arrest someone in Greece for transporting oil from Iran to China? I don’t see how it’s any of our fucking business.
So instead of putting the US capital investors in prison and seizing the assets of the equity firm, they seize the oil and fuck the greek company.
That is judiciary colonialism
No. A LA based private equity company technically owned the boat at the time of transfer (they do not own it anymore, it’s been sold to the Greek company). That US based company is seemingly off Scott free in this situation and the Greek company is the one being fined and sanctioned.
Seeing how they pled guilty and paid a 2.5 Million dollar fine and 3 years probation, I guess it was our fucking business.
They plead guilty to violating the IEEPA, which is a law we passed that says if we declare an emergency we can regulate whatever international commerce we feel like. The US being being wealthy enough that companies choose to comply so they can still have our business doesn’t make it right.
The company is Greek.
The ship was owned by a US company:
"But the Suez Rajan case was unique at the time of the transfer because it was owned by the Los Angeles-based private equity firm Oaktree Capital Management. "
Great. You got me on a technicality. So it’s okay for any country to steal oil from another if that tanker, or it’s propeller, was once owned by the thieving country?
Oaktree Capital Management doesn’t sound very Greek to me. Maybe it’s because the company is based in Los Angeles…
Your justifying piracy. It’s okay when we do it. But not when they do. How magnanimous.
There is a lot of misreporting and misunderstanding about this. OFAC (Office of Foreign Asset Control) exists within Treasury and is responsible for enforcing sanctions usually created by executive order (“EO”), or very rarely, Congress. EOs and OFAC interpretation are very specific: some sanctions, such as the ones on the export of Iranian crude/products, are explicitly extraterritorial. Meaning, the US reserves the right to come after you no matter what country you are a citizen of or where you company is domiciled. It’s very rare for them to try this one anyone who doesn’t have US nexus since there is not much practically speaking they can do, but they could in theory. OFAC has, no pun intended, FAQs for all of this easily found at their site.
Now, this case was extra stupid. Oaktree is the single biggest PE investor in shipping, going in heavy starting a bit before the financial crash and going in really big with Eagle Bulk c. 2012 or so. Oaktree is, as stated, a US company, but that wasn’t the main reason: they did this transaction in USD. Which was stupid, but having met the bastards at Empire a few times, I can say they are not the brightest bunch (as as far as I understand they are doing most of this kind of work in EUR with some shady banks nowadays anyway). Anyway any transaction in USD goes through the SWIFT system (which is why kicking Russia out of it was such a massive deal). This means there was simply no way this was not going to get eventually scanned since banks have repurposed their AML programs into sanctions programs or subscribe to sanctions-specific services like PoleStar’s PupleTrac (what my company uses) or Windward or Lloyd’s, etc. Now the dirty secret is that the banks don’t really understand movement data that well, but Empires has done this (and Venezuela) so often for so long, someone at Treasury probably said, “OK, since we got Oaktree all up in this, let’s make an example of of these guys to scare others away from these trades.”
[spoiler alert: it did not scare others away from these trades and most folks estimate there are about 1,000 large tankers that form a so called “Dark Fleet” trading in Iran, Venezuela, and now Russia since both crude and product have broken the price cap at all Russian export locations. You cam make about 40% more shipping such cargos than legal ones.]
Anyway, I digress, The the point is that OFAC doesn’t care if you have US nexus; it just makes you easier to catch if you do. Source: I am the head of credit and compliance for a large oil company that works closely with the shipping industry.
Now I’m curious to know how a head of compliance for a oil company found their way to kbin.social.
Lemmy isn’t just programmers and cryptobros fyi. Lots of people have interesting jobs and hardly anyone works 100% of the time. Gotta shitpost somewhere.
Eh, for one we are hyper specialized oil company so not quite as evil as your run of the mill ones. We sell fuel to ships, so unless everyone suddenly agrees they don’t need the 90% of the world’s commodities and manufactured goods anymore, you gotta use ships. And in a moderate defense, ships by far the least polluting way to transport stuff by ton/mile.
Me personally I’m a big old lefty, even here within the EU’s context (where the American Democrats would be a center-right party).I just fell into this role and happened to be good at it. My function is far too niche for any green energy projects. At the core of what we do and the bit I supervise, we are basically providing short term liquidity to shipping companies, since you sell fuel on unsecured credit. Believe me I’ve looked (and keep looking) at green and adjacent spaces.
OFAC stole a wire transfer to my landlord. I assume it’s because he has a Middle Eastern-sounding name.
They provided me a case number and I mailed in the forms I found online to dispute the seizure. They sent me a letter saying that they had no record of that case. I realized the futility of fighting the government over a couple of grand and switched to depositing money orders into his account and let it go. Created a lot of extra effort (not that it was difficult, just tedious) on my end.
OFAC is a criminal organization.
I’m sorry man but when it comes to international topics I can’t trust some faceless user on the internet for a run down of what happened.
Do you have any sources or directions you can point me in for more information about the inconsistencies in reporting?
(Just had a thought, we should have meta news agencies that analyze news agencies (including each other meta news agency))
Yeah my guy/gal non-binarny pal, I wouldn’t take some Random Internet Person’s word either (although I did mention where you could find it…)
End of my workday and I’m tired and maybe could have found some better examples, but here’s the bit about going after foreign financial services: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-31/subtitle-B/chapter-V/part-561/subpart-B
I’m having trouble finding a clear example of the extraterritoriality of US sanctions against individuals, but it’s defined in nearly every EO.
I am the head of credit and compliance for a large oil company that works closely with the shipping industry.
So, complicit in the destruction of the planet. Good job, Sparky!
Didn’t you say something about being better and not attacking people like two hours ago in this exact thread.
They could at least give Iran back their oil. This is like when cops steal your jewelry and claim civil forfeiture.
The contraband cargo is now the subject of a civil forfeiture action in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. The United States’ forfeiture complaint alleges that the oil aboard the vessel is subject to forfeiture based on U.S. terrorism and money laundering statutes.
The complaint alleges a scheme involving multiple entities affiliated with Iran’s IRGC and the IRGC-Qods Force (IRGC-QF) to covertly sell and transport Iranian oil to a customer abroad. Participants in the scheme attempted to disguise the origin of the oil using ship-to-ship transfers, false automatic identification system reporting, falsified documents and other means. The complaint further alleges that the charterer of the vessel used the U.S. financial system to facilitate the transportation of Iranian oil
If you tried to transport a kilo of Mexican cocaine through another country and were caught, do you really think Mexico would get its cocaine back?
No, but they control what happens aboard ships that fly American flags.
Do you think the ocean is some sort of lawless no man’s land, where captains do as they please with crew and passengers?
Well, it isn’t. The ship has a flag, and while aboard you follow the laws of that flag.
It’s the same bullshit with the US “pay us taxes no matter where you are” bullshit.
It’s clear international overreach just like everything else.
All countries do that. Then all countries also want you to “pay us taxes where you live”. Double taxation is a problem for many people, even between countries with tax agreements like in the EU.
You can tell from the comments in this post that Americans are immune to propaganda.
In their view propaganda only comes from rouge nations, and their superior intellect safeguards them from the impact of foreign propaganda. Despite living in the worlds most propagandized country.
I somehow don’t think the US is more propagandized than, say, North Korea. I want a source on this or I’m just going to assume you’re pulling it out of your ass.
I’m gonna go with that it’s typically pulled out of their ass for some sweet dunking points
There are two types of propaganda, the north Korean one which boils down to the party and leader who can do nothing wrong, and as a result there is only one truth, because the government controls it.
The western method is to flood the person with a constant barrage of information, stimulus, and dopamine, it doesn’t matters the subject “the conservatives are sucking off and swallowing the loads of corporations again” “some trannny will ask you to call him she, and eat your children” in this case the truth doesn’t matter either, as truth has become another commodity to be bought as capital demands, you can buy your own truth, you can even get your own prophet, for the low price of 5 each month.
Probably. Since it’s one with the least censorship, everyone needs to push more propaganda than the opposition…
“In addition, pursuant to a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) and a seizure warrant issued by the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, Empire Navigation, the operating company of the vessel carrying the contraband cargo, agreed to cooperate and transport the Iranian oil to the United States – an operation which has now concluded.”
Link came from this CNN article. Would you say that ignoring the facts of a situation and using it to push an agenda would be, perhaps, propaganda?
transport the Iranian oil to the United States
So everyone is cool with the US taking stuff that isnt theirs?
