Jeez this war is so deadly.
You know what’s controversial? Bombing hospitals, schools and residential buildings.
You know what’s controversial? Blowing up a dam that destroys an entire region of the country.
You know what’s controversial? Keeping a nuclear power plant as hostage.
You know what’s controversial? Abducting children and taking them against their will to another country.
You know what’s controversial? Torture and mutilation of soldiers defending their home land.
Whoever says or implies at this late stage of russian atrocities that cluster bombs for Ukraine are “controversial” - fuck yourself gently with a rusted chainsaw.
EDIT: typo (half the time I try and type “of”, it comes out as “if”)
Those things being evil does not make cluster bombs less evil.
Russia approves using cluster bombs, so it’s fine to use them against Russia.
I disagree. The trouble with cluster bombs (as with landmines) is that they are indiscriminate killers. Sure, they may kill some Russian soldiers now, but the ones that don’t explode (a huge minority of them) will remain in the ground until an innocent Ukrainian child gets blown up years from now.
It’s fine to cheer on the ‘killing Russian soldiers’ part, but when it comes to cluster bombs that comes hand in hand with ‘killing innocent civilians, years after the conflict ends’, which is less okay.
Good
I hate war but the Ukrainians deserve support defending themselves.
So what’s the exact advantage of a cluster munition in this circumstance?
It’s also more expensive (which I guess is our problem, not the Ukrainian’s) and if covering area is the goal normal high explosive shells work pretty well.
I’m pretty sure there’s more to say than that. Bigger isn’t necessarily better.
if covering area is the goal normal high explosive shells work pretty well.
That website also has a set of images showing cluster vs. HE vs. airburst.
It’s also more expensive (which I guess is our problem, not the Ukrainian’s)
The US is expected to provide Dual-purpose improved conventional munition (DPICM) which, according to the Wikipedia article
as of 2014 many were reaching the end of their useful life and required disposal
So like many weapon donations (see Storm Shaddow) they are already paid for, end of life weapons that were unlikely to be used in anger.
cluster munitions cover way bigger area. this makes a difference in several ways:
- you don’t need to haul as many shells to the frontline in the first place, making entire logistics easier
- you don’t wear out barrels as much, which makes artillery work for longer time
- you cover entire area at once, taking enemy by surprise and denying them time needed to go for cover
- submunitions are DPICM, which means that if a vehicle is hit from above by it, it can be penetrated (yes, even tanks) unless covered in ERA or such. in contrast, you need direct hit or almost direct hit of unitary projectile to disable armoured vehicle
- it’s not one big boom, it’s lots of small booms, which means that some bomblets will fall into trenches. unitary airburst shells offer similar capability, but these are rather uncommon for some reason
disadvantage is price, but also small size of each bomblet. because of small size and need to manufacture them in vastly higher numbers there are some limitations of fuzing mechanism that make it fail more often than your everyday unitary artillery shell. this is known limitation that lead to withdrawal of cluster munitions in the first place, at least in some western countries, and also reason for development of M30A1 AW for GMLRS. this will be mitigated by humanitarian demining made easier to some degree by painting submuntions bright yellow.
one thing to note. cluster warheads are effective weapons, but have limitations. namely, western doctrine relies on rapid movement, and if you shell enemy positions with cluster artillery, you can’t safely advance before demining takes place, unless you are either advancing in armoured vehicles only or are willing to take these losses. this is the less shiny reason for putting cluster warheads out of production in the western militaries
Ukrainian drone operators are also using single submunitions, presumably from cluster bombs, as drone dropped ammunition (i’ve seen at least three separate videos of this). these things are well suited for this role and are used in vastly smaller numbers minimizing UXO issues in the future
replacements include things like M30A1 AW or airburst unitary artillery (esp M1130 and similar) against soft targets (like soldiers in the open and trucks) and SFW, BONUS and such smart weapons against armor. DPICM does both of these things at once
as usual shortcomings of DPICM can be solved by throwing money at the problem
Hey, thanks for writing this.
unitary airburst shells offer similar capability, but these are rather uncommon for some reason
Really? I thought that was the standard type of shell. Do the typical unitary shells detonate on impact with the ground, then?
Ukrainian drone operators are also using single submunitions, presumably from cluster bombs, as drone dropped ammunition (i’ve seen at least three separate videos of this). these things are well suited for this role and are used in vastly smaller numbers minimizing UXO issues in the future
Oh yeah, I hadn’t considered that. And seeing as some of these were at end of life anyway it actually makes sense as an alternative to an ordinary infantry grenade.
Really? I thought that was the standard type of shell. Do the typical unitary shells detonate on impact with the ground, then?
at least judging by most of combat footage i’ve seen, this is the most common case. consider however that “artillery” is a mix of everything between 60mm mortar and 155mm howitzer, and only some of these have airburst as a standard option. also consider that despite flashy public announcements everyone clears their magazines out of old kit, and this means mostly older type, PD fuzed ammunition. Albania for example sent chinese 81mm mortars, which means it could be from 70s or so, and it’s hardly an exception
cluster bomblets for drones make sense, because cluster bomblets are already designed to be dropped at relatively low speed, have fins or ribbon so that they hit target the right way, have appropriate size and weight, are DPICM so are both antitank and generate fragments, it just makes sense
grenades are probably one of the least resource intensive weapons to develop in this situation btw, and really, about everything that drone can lift was already used as drone dropped ammunition. hand grenades of all manufacturers including thermobaric, 30mm VOG-17, 40mm projected grenades, both western and eastern, RPG warheads, 60mm mortars, 81/82mm mortars, DPICM elements, at least few instances of 120mm mortar, and many, many custom made devices including 500ml fanta bottles
