Like many of you, I woke up this morning to discover that our instance, along with lemmy.world, had been unexpectedly added to the beehaw block list. Although this development initially caught me off guard, the administrators at beehaw made an announcement shedding light on their decision.
The primary concern raised was our instance’s policy of open registration. Given my belief that the fediverse is still navigating its early stages, I believe that for it to mature, gain traction, and encourage adoption, it is crucial for instances to offer an uncomplicated and direct route for newcomers to join and participate. This was one of the reason I decided to launch this instance. However, I do acknowledge that this inclusive approach brings its unique challenges, including the potential for toxicity and trolls. Despite these hurdles, I maintain the conviction that our collective strength as a community can overcome these issues.
After this happened, the beehaw admins and I had a good chat about their decision. While our stances on registration policies might diverge, we realized that our ultimate goals are aligned: we both strive to foster communities that thrive in an atmosphere of safety and respect, where users can passionately engage in discussions and feel a sense of belonging.
Although the probability of an immediate reversal are slim given the current circumstances, I believe we have managed to identify common ground. It’s evident that, even in separation, we can unite to contribute positively to the broader fediverse community.
In the coming weeks or months, we plan to collaborate with other lemmy instance administrators to suggest enhancements and modifications to the lemmy project. Primarily, our proposals will concentrate on devising tools and features that empower us, as instance administrators, to moderate our platforms effectively.
In the meantime, while I understand may not be ideal for everyone, users who choose to participate on the beehaw instance will be required to register a separate account on their instance.
Thank you all for continuing to make this community great!
I’d just like to say that I appreciate your stance on open registration and making things as uncomplicated as possible. I signed up for a Beehaw account before this even happened, but I did find having to explain myself and justify my presence a little confusing. I also signed up for a discuss.tchncs.de account and I was so confused and thought their website was broken because once I clicked sign up, it didn’t do anything. Just span around in a circle. It wasn’t until I checked my email that I realised it wanted me to confirm my email. Here, things did just work. No complications, just entered my name, email and password, clicked sign up, and I was done! I guess you could say… shit just works on sh.itjust.works
Brief explanation of how defederation works.
Basically Beehaw and all its communities and users are now blocking everyone from this server. We can’t post to their communities and they can’t see anything that we post on third party communities either.
However, this server has not defederated Beehaw. Therefore, we can still see their users commenting on third party communities, and we can even reply to them, they just won’t see our reply, although neutral parties will.
Both Beehaw and sh.itjust.works are still able to contribute significant activity to Lemmy as a whole, just not directly to each other for now. Let’s all be diligent on reporting and banning trolls quickly so we can maintain the collegial atmosphere here.
i joined the fediverse to shitpost, but more importantly to create a new community.
beehaw’s actions are VERY bad for the fediverse. for any social network to succeed it needs USERS. and when you have an entrenched giant, you need all the help you can get. federation is great but it also means a more spread out community which makes it hard for any one instance to succeed. what beehaw is doing is just chopping the legs off the fediverse right when it’s finding its footing.
also to an outsider, the fediverse is already confusing enough. now we can to deal with the whole “oh you can join this server and not that” and “if you join here, you can see them but they can’t see you” nonsense. closed registrations turn away people, this sort of chaos also turns away people.
i’m personally blocking all beehaw servers. i appreciate moderation is hard, and sad that trolls are coming in so early. but moderation is a solvable problem. instead of opening applications for more mods, they decided to go the cowardly route.
I get that we need more users. But allowing the communities who were here first to get torn apart is not how you do that. The beehaw users have already shown the ability to grow communities from scratch. That’s exactly the kind of people we want here.
But they also need to be given space to build those communities. This is essentially the core concept of Lemmy, that federation allows you to have large high activity communities coexisting in peace with small niche communities. You get to have both things on the same platform, because instances that come into conflict can defederate without having any impact on the network as a whole.
There are many bigger reasons that the platform is confusing, the beehaw situation doesn’t even move the needle. If anything, I think the defederation has helped many people start to understand how cool the federated structure can be.
I understand you’re frustrated they couldn’t just moderate the problem away, but seriously man, don’t be so dramatic. Beehaw is cutting the legs off the fediverse? Bro if the fediverse fails it won’t be due to the actions of beehaw, I can tell you that much.
This might be good for some folks to read here to get a better feel of what Beehaw positions themselves as and their thinking:
(What is Beehaw?)[https://beehaw.org/post/107014]
(Behaw is a community)[https://beehaw.org/post/140733]
(A few thoughts on Beehaw’s design)[https://beehaw.org/post/439918]
Edit: My assumption is that the links will open in your browser. If this isn’t the case maybe I can stick these posts in a pastebin or something, lemmy know ;)
I’m personally disappointed but don’t fault them. MY thinking is along The Dude’s - ease of participation is key, with all of the risks that entails - but that’s why I’m here rather than elsewhere.
Something I don’t think a lot of people quite get yet - this is the DIY web. Different people take different approaches to community building, some very carefully and meticulously, and others not so much. And that’s good - cool, even, IMO. Clashes are going to happen, but that’s ok.
So you can pick another instance, or spin your own, but I’d rather people come from a place of participation rather than consumption on Lemmy writ large. One of the bigger instances defederated from us? Well shit, guess we’re gonna have to make some content ourselves.
Post often, comment often, call fellow sh.it.heads (and other folks too) out if they’re acting like shitheads. Be a positive presence in the Fediverse. Make some friends. The rest will sort itself out in time.
I get that we need more users. But allowing the communities who were here first to get torn apart is not how you do that.
This is my big thought as well. Having a larger and more interconnected fediverse is all well and good, but letting people join and then cause problems isn’t going to do anything but drive new users away - especially if those trolls all congregate in communities that used to be among the more appealing parts of the fediverse. I can’t really fault the Beehaw mods for taking a temporarily heavy-handed approach in the middle of a user influx. Better that than being overrun and lose the primary selling point of the instance.
To gain users, users need to find a space that matches what they want. If you want a 4chan style environment, beehaw.org is not for you. If you want a beehaw.org style environment, then maybe it’s a GREAT place to be. It’s getting angry at users for wanting different things from the experience that will reduce the number of users, not that some spaces are different from others
There was already a community blocked from this very node and lemmy.world as well because they are VERY enthusiastic of tanks and were flooding other communities.
I don’t see that much tragedy and drama coming out for that so … eh, hard to take these kind of comments seriously, especially when they show to not have even understood how the federation works.
What I don’t understand is why we can’t see me posts and comments read only on Beehaw. I can see it by going to their (public) website, why can’t I see it from here?
So I guess a solution coild be having different switches for getting/sending data to an instance. So in this case beehaw could block receiving updates from sh.itjust.works but not block sending updates to sh.itjust.works. That way we could all still see the content from there while on sh.itjust.works just not interact with it. This could be displayed in the UI by having the comment box and all interaction buttons that would send an update disabled.
I’m disappointed that we have to suffer because of a few bad apples but I can understand the situation. We’ll all have to do our part to report and remove these trash brain bigots from out instance. I really enjoy the laid back atmosphere of this instance but it is acutely vulnerable to trolls as evidenced by that shithead.
You don’t have to suffer. Everything posted on beehaw will be reposted elsewhere, that’s just the nature of the internet. And if you really want to interact with beehaw, just go make another free account over there.
And if you really want to interact with beehaw, just go make another free account over there.
IF they’ll let you in.
Fuck em, I applied to several different servers and it took days to get accepted. Open registration is necessary
I do acknowledge that this inclusive approach brings its unique challenges, including the potential for toxicity and trolls.
Annnnnnd there it is.
It’s almost as if they’re getting the result they were looking for. People saying they disagree with their choice are exactly the people they’re trying to avoid lol.
Anyone else noticing that the only people getting pissy about this instance being defederated from beehaw due to trolls…
…Aren’t even from from this instance?
Just asshats from exploding heads feeling the need to come defend their right to be dicks.
I’ve been on the Fediverse since around 2015-2016 (don’t remember if it was just before or just after I went back to school). It seems like a lot of the newbies here don’t understand what the Fediverse is for and about. There’s a lot of anger and hate that the Fediverse is supposed to be free and open and all the instances all federate with each other, and it’s just like… No. That’s not the point. Why would we even architect ActivityPub to have whitelist and blacklist functionalities if we didn’t want server admins to be able to use them? The point of the fediverse is that you own your relationship to your server’s moderators, and you pick your server’s moderators based on their moderation style.
Think of it this way. On reddit, the administrators have full power over all communities. Don’t like it? You are welcome to have no avenues to participate in any of the discussions. On the fediverse every server has a team that has full power of that small section of the internet. Don’t like how they federate? Pick a different instance that better matches how you would like to interact with the fediverse. If you’re angry that Beehaw is doing this, it just means Beehaw isn’t a good fediverse home for you. You can just… Not go to beehaw for your fediverse needs. Do you like it here, but still want to see posts from Beehaw? Maybe an instance that federates with both is right for you. Because if you like what’s on beehaw, to some extent, you are enjoying the community that is there because they like how things are run there. There is an extent to which you have common ground with those moderators. An instance that federates both there and here is saying “We like what both of these moderation teams are about.”
Here’s another way to think of it. Let’s think about the internet as being the world. The Fediverse is one country in the world. Each project is like a city. You pick which city you want to live in based on what’s going on in your life and how you want to go about things. Here in the Lemmy city (which is very near the KBin city. Think New York and Newark), every instance represents a house with a garden. When you move into the Lemmy, when you pick your instance you move into a house where your profile lives, and then you go hang out in the communities in the back garden. Who your administrators choose to let into the garden is just them creating the atmosphere they want for their garden party. And almost every Lemmy garden has defederated from someone. Almost every server has set up rules about what it takes to walk through the back gate to come kick it in the back garden. The largest instance with a fully open door policy is lemm.ee, not lemmy.world or sh.itjust.works. They’re the 3rd largest instance overall.
All beehaw.org is saying is that our house is very crowded and their bouncer can’t keep up with all the people trying to get into their garden party. And it’s what makes the fediverse beautiful. That’s the point of the fediverse.
I’ve been on the Fediverse since around 2015-2016 (don’t remember if it was just before or just after I went back to school). It seems like a lot of the newbies here don’t understand what the Fediverse is for and about.
These people might lack technical knowledge of how federation works, but they get the ramifications of federation just fine. The fediverse didn’t invent federated protocols in 2015, there are some truly large and successful federated networks we can learn lessons from.
Email is often used as a cultural touchstone to introduce people to the fediverse. You know what a major email provider almost never does? Blackhole customers from another major email provider en masse. They understand that the value of their service is in its interconnectness, and an email address that can communicate with everyone you know is much much more valuable than an email address that can communicate with a confusing subset of people you know. They don’t eschew blocklists, which are an essential tool for combatting abuse. But when deploying a block, they consider their own costs and also the costs to the network as a whole. This wasn’t always a given, there were many walled gardens before and some tried to operate email that way, they were not successful.
The internet itself is the most successful federated network in the world. Do you know what a tier 1 isp almost never does? Depeer other tier-1 ISPs in a way that disrupts the global routing table. Again, they don’t eschew selective peering, every few years somebody plays chicken with tier 1 peering agreements that could isolate Comcast customers from Netflix or Verizon customers or whatever. But in the end they do consider the costs to the network, and understand that the value of their service is it’s ubiquitous interconnectedness. Again, this wasn’t always a given. In the early days there were vigorous debates about who got to join the internet.
… every instance represents a house with a garden.
Beehaw has about 13 thousand registered users. At this scale the garden party metaphor looks pretty silly. A much better metaphor is that each fediverse app is a world, and each instance is a nation. Beehaw has a problem with the immigration policies of other nations (registration), and it’s enacted drastic trade and travel sanctions as a negotiating lever. As an independent nation, it’s entirely within their purview to do this, but as in real life the costs of doing so are high both within Beehaw and beyond.
The idea of federation/peering as a negotiating lever is always popular when a federated network is young, has poor abuse management tools, and the cost of severely damaging the network is low. But as soon as the network becomes useful enough to matter, the value of interconnectedness dominates all other concerns and people suddenly find other ways to resolve their disagreements.
So I disagree that people aren’t getting federation. They get intuitively that interconnectedness dominates the value equation in networks that matter, and are treating the Lemmyverse like it matters to them. The Beehaw admins are treating it like a toy they can break if it doesn’t work the way they want, and in doing so they will ensure that it remains a toy until the network routes around them and makes them irrelevant.
In another example, cell phone companies allow users to keep their number and call anyone on any service.
However they also have laws to block people who use that accessibility to troll others (spam calls).
You’re expecting an open sourced, volunteer network to have the same controls as private companies with departments dedicated to keeping these issues in check. Your analogy does not work.
In your country example, each country has users verified (passports) and travel between two countries is not allowed without proof of their verified identity which comes with other controls for restricting individuals on a case by case basis as they break the laws of the country they immigrate to. Lemmy does not have those tools yet, so until they do the point is moot. How about you help create those tools since you view the current status as such a travesty?
yes, some comments are so extreme like “i hope their community dies off”.
Dude, like… wtf? seems like they did good by separating even if temporarily.
I’ll try and create an account over there because I like the idea of a safe space to discuss some topics that are sensitive to the users but in any case I wish them the best and hope that they will be able to re-federate soon enough.
