Basic cyber security says that passwords should be encrypted and hashed, so that even the company storing them doesn’t know what the password is. (When you log in, the site performs the same encrypting and hashing steps and compares the results) Otherwise if they are hacked, the attackers get access to all the passwords.
I’ve noticed a few companies ask for specific characters of my password to prove who I am (eg enter the 2nd and 9th character)
Is there any secure way that this could be happening? Or are the companies storing my password in plain text?
There are at least two components relevant for entering credentials:
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the webclient running on your pc/phone
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the company server
You open a registration page on a website and your browser downloads the application to your device (just like downloading an app from a store).
The application gives you a form to create an account or a login page where you enter the password/username.
The client then checks if the credentials you entered contain the correct amount of special characters and numbers.
Only after that the credentials are hashed/encrypted and send to the server.
You didn’t read the post’s description.
How is it possible that a company asks you to provide the second letter of your password to prove identify? Surely this would either mean the passwords are stored unencrypted. Or they’re using some other form of very dubious security.
Sorry, I misunderstood your post. They could do this by doing the process I described above AND storing parts of your password. Without further research, this sounds insecure though.
E.g. your password is: SuperSecure? The hash of your password is: 15837A4C3B Your client sends the hash and the characters 0,2,4 to the server: S p r They can then ask you for single digits of the password.
Another possibility is that they could encrypt the characters with a key to build a more secure value to transmit. As the others have said, this is possibly unsecure too.
In general: it’s services are either comfortable to use or secure. You can achieve both on a basic level, but not on a higher level.
Is not “possible” insecure. It’s wildly insecure. Encrypting single digits? I mean, anyone could bruteforce them by hand alone.
I’m assuming they’re plain text. There’s is no perceivable way they can only use those data points to to figure out which hash it is. Unless of course they’re using their own “hashing” function which isn’t secure at all since it’s probably reversible.
Perhaps they validate the passwords client side before hashing. The user could bypass the restrictions pretty easily by modifying the JavaScript of the website, but the password would not be transmitted un-hashed.
It is worth pointing out that nearly any password restriction like this can be made ineffective by the user anyway. Most people who are asked to put a special character in the password just add a ! to the end. I think length is still a good validation though and it runs into the same issue @randombullet@lemmy.world is asking about
How would they validate individual characters client side? The set password is on the server.
When you are filling out the web form with your password it’s stored plain text in the web browser and accessible via JavaScript. At that point, a JavaScript function checks the requirements like length and then does the salting/hashing/etc and sends the result to the server.
You could probably come up with a convoluted scheme to check requirements server side, but it would weaken the strength of the hash so I doubt anyone does it this way. The down side of the client side checking is that a tenacious user could bypass the password requirements by modifying the JavaScript. But they could also just choose a dumb password within the requirements so it doesn’t matter much… “h4xor!h4xor!h4xor!” Fits most password requirements I have seen but is probably tried pretty quickly by password crackers.
Theoretically they could take those two characters + a salt and then also store that hash. So there it is technically a way to do it although it’d be incredibly redundant, just ask for the actual password at that point.
Please don’t do that. Brute force attacks are very easy on single characters, even two of them.
I’ve only seen this as a second factor after entering a full password. Although it has mostly been replaced by actual 2FA now. Last time I remember this type was on the uk gov student finance website
The 2 occasions I can think of, it was characters from my main password. Both were during contact with the Support teams. I no longer have service with either of the companies (due to unrelated reasons)
On one occasion, yes, over the phone.
The other I was in a web chat on the company’s website and they provided a link to a page on the same website where it asked for the characters
I always figured they checked the plaintext locally before hashing and sending it to their server, but I don’t really know.
This is it.
It seems a lot of people have trouble distinguishing between what’s simply happening in their browser, and what’s being sent back to the server. I mean, I get it; it’s confusing, even to the people creating the tech, let alone a casual netizen. It’s a good question, and you can’t fault anyone for wondering what’s what.
Yes, asking these questions is a fantastic thing.
Speaking of questions - I imagine there is a day to use the built in dev tools in the browser to verify that the particular site does this, but I don’t know how. Do you happen to know how I might?
I remember signing up for a site a few years ago and they emailed me my confirmation, with my password, in plaintext. I was absolutely shocked
Just a heads-up, your comment is posted twice.
Not sure if there are any browser dev tools that do what you’re specifically asking. It’s more that you need to know what to look for in the source code, and the tools just aid in finding/editing/testing things. Even if you learn a dozen coding languages, and know what to look for, they may be sending the password as plain text and then doing the dirty work server-side. Maybe they send a single-use key to your browser, hash and send the password with that, then re-hash it on the server, with a private key. There are numerous ways to accomplish the task, and I’m glad I didn’t start any arguments with my simplistic “this is it” statement.
All of that said, I’ve been out of practice for quite a while, and I was never a wizard anyhow. So, maybe someone else can offer a catch-all solution, but I really doubt it. Regardless, being aware and vigilant puts you way ahead of the pack, so nice work there.
You’re right, I misread the post. What sites have done that? I’ve been fortunate to never encounter any.
Do they always ask for the same characters? I’d imagine they could hash the password as well as saving only the 2nd and 9th characters as plaintext. Still a bit of a security risk but not nearly as bad
Theoretically they could hash the the two characters with a salt and store it that way, but extremely unlikely they’d actually do that. And also fairly pointless. But still technically possible.
