Comment by snooggums@lemmy.world on BYD would still have the cheapest EV in the US, even with a 100% tariff

Even with the new 100% tariff on electric vehicles imported from China, BYD would still have the cheapest EV in the US. According to a new report, BYD’s lowest-priced EV would still undercut all US automakers at under $25,000.

After discontinuing the production of vehicles powered entirely by internal combustion engines in March 2022, BYD has been at the forefront of the industry’s shift to EVs.

Honestly in my opinion it is time to remove all tariffs on EVs under 25k and let anyone who wants to fill that slot in. American car manufacturers refuse to fill the market need.

There are some situations where imports being cheaper is due to foreign government subsidies undercutting local production and tarrifs are the wat to level the field. Frequently this gets warped into protectionism, allowing local production to have a leg up while continuing their crappy business practices, like most US auto manufacturers.

In this case the 100% tariffs is mostly the latter. It was not a thought out rate based on any kind of logic, just an emotional overreaction.

We do not need someone in office proposing reactionary, emotionally based tax policies.

foreign government subsidies undercutting local production and tarrifs are the wat to level the field.

Also, lack of labor, safety, and environmental regulations. Chinese companies literally own slaves, no worker can’t compete with free. Combine that with safety and environmental, you get cheap manufacturing.

Dont forget spyware as well! Lots of that built in.

That exists in USA’s supply chain too.

Prisoners are the most glaring omission from the Constitution’s abolition of slavery.

Undocumented immigrants are exploited even harder than other working class people living in America, and that’s the real reason that neither party will do more than give lip-service to securing the border, or even talk about going after employers who hire undocumented workers.

Do you think that prison labor and undocumented workers are a significant portion of the labor used to produce EVs in the USA?

Prisoners may find it difficult to make the commute and show up on time for a factory shift.

But actually yes, their labor contribution is a significant component in the supply chain.

For example, if an undocumented worker labors to produce food, that frees up another person’s labor for working in a factory.

Some of the things used in the automotive industry that are made by prisoners:
-wiring harnesses
-interior components like seat covers, upholstery, and floor mats
-lighting components like headlights and interior lights
-repair and refurbishment of government fleet vehicles; brakes, body work, painting, mechanical repairs, etc…, which also frees up the labor of skilled mechanics to work on returning broken EVs to the road

Other goods and services produced by prisoners that indirectly assist the production of EV’s include:
-circuit boards, mostly for government use, but lower demand for civilian circuit board manufacturing capacity lowers the prices of EV components
-office furniture
-eye-wear, including prescription lenses and safety glasses that might be worn in the EV factories
-metalworking, including making toolboxes, lockers and shelves that may be found in EV factories
-government warehouse & distribution jobs free up civilian labor that can go into EV supply chain logistics

So directly, absolutely not.

Indirectly, probably.

??? China has literally been subsidizing BYD to help it to beat out foreign manufactures and to make it competitive in foreign markets. So yeah, there may be some protectionism involved, but there is definitely an argument that China is unfairly subsidizing BYD, making it impossible for rival companies to compete.

https://electrek.co/2024/04/12/china-gave-byd-an-incredible-3-7-billion-to-win-the-ev-race/

And we’ve been subsidizing ours too. We just do it differently than straight up handing them money. (Although we’ve done that before too)

The main issue is that China seems to subsidize BYD quite a bit more than other countries do. In addition, this seems to match China’s general policy of finding ways to give its own companies advantages in foreign markets, while limiting the equivalent from other countries

Yes, yes, yes.

But why does the West, which has been technologically ahead the entire time, can’t produce a cheap simple EV?

Like sure, China is propping up their shit maybe more than the West is, but why can’t we get one small inexpensive simple car?

the reason we don’t do it is ~~pretty much purely ideological~~ money wouldn’t go to the executives pockets immediately

But wouldn’t that be communism?! We wouldn’t want that! 😱

Most of the subsidies that article was talking about are actually domestic buyers subsidies.

I mean the tech is still new as well as the point that SSJMarx mentioned. To add to the list of reasons to make expensive version of cars first:

New tech is more expensive usually
Not everyone has the budget to openly spend 20K plus on a new vehicle, which means lower demand
Since not everyone will just buy a new car, companies need to make as much money per unit sold which means luxury cars make more sense
additionally lowering demand is the fact that not everyone wants an EV or feels comfortable driving them (due to its different fueling method)

I do expect that over time manufactures will begin to release cheaper EVs over time that are aimed for average consumers.

I’m sorry, but that makes 0 sense.

Not everyone can spend 20k, so let’s make 100k cars?

And when China is selling such cheap cars, let’s stop them too, because there is no demand?

There is nothing logical about your arguments.

Pretty sure other incentives have been implemented for other car companies like tax rebates. Let’s not forget the fossil fuel industry being subsidized still…

You’re correct, but what I was, not clearly, talking about is increasing the incentives so its easier for people to purchase electric vehicles. You do bring up a good point that fossil fuel subsidies should also be reduced to better reflect its true costs.

During global boiling crisis we should completely reverse and start taxing fossil fuel

The complicated thing about that is it will harm your average worker until cheap alternatives are available.

?? Then why tarriff EVs?

Those incentives don’t just apply to US companies only which is what China is doing with their state-owned companies.

Yes, that is a reason for having tariffs to offset the government subsidy. But “100% tariffs” instead of one set based on the actual impact of the government subsidies is an emotional overreaction.

What would be the alternative? China is no releasing numbers to how much they subsidize BYD, I doubt BYD would want to be that transparent either.

From my point of view the US could either wait, try to study and figure out the puzzle for how much China subsidizes BYD in order to come up with a good tariff amount, all while China still accomplishes its goals, or they can put tariffs now and make adjustments later. For all we know, 100% tariff may be too low, we don’t know for certain.

Let me know if there’s a better plan that’s being talked about.

The 100% tariff was Trump spouting the first thing that came to his lips during the debate. It was stupid and as you pointed out, it might not be high enough depending on subsidies received by BVD. Or it could be way too high, because of the reduced costs to manufacture like most things we buy from China.

A better plan is for knowledgeable experts to evaluate the situation and set tariffs, which is the normal process.

Or the other option, subsidize American EVs. They’ve been trying to do that, but pretty half assed, to the point where only Tesla and a few Chevys qualify.

My understanding is that the subsidize are to also encourage american manufacturing which those companies you listed satisfy. These subsidies are incentives for manufacturers rather than buyers, as it encourages these companies to change their manufacturing process which would lead to reduced costs.

Yeah, tax incentives and consumer rebates won’t encourage investment in American EV manufacturing capacity because they could disappear overnight and the extra capacity would then be wasted.

Free money to build new factories will do it though, and that’s what Uncle Sam has been spending on - its less risky to tool up a factory for mass production of a low margin family sedan when somebody else is paying for the tools and you won’t lose money if your new model sedan doesn’t sell enough units to cover the one time factory startup costs.

allowing local production to have a leg up while continuing their crappy business practices, like most US auto manufacturers.

What US manufacturers? There is only GM, Ford, and Tesla left. People are so ignorant of the market here while simultaneously telling us all “how it is” with their strong, uninformed opinions.

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BYD would still have the cheapest EV in the US, even with a 100% tariff(electrek.co)

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