Who had this on their bingo card?
What the fuck is wrong with people?
That’s rhetorical and I have a fair understanding about why this is happening. It’s just so bloody frustrating not knowing how to turn this shit around and open the eyes of gen pop to this. People just don’t want to accept that unless we do something right quick, we’re fucked. We might be fucked even if we do everything right, starting tomorrow. And still, pretty much nothing, or token agreements that are cheap enough and not too disruptive to the almighty economy and doesn’t disrupt availability of cheap crap from China and other low cost countries with little to no worker safety or even regard for human life. I’m not saying I’m not part of the problem myself, cuz I sure as hell am. I try to do the right things, but far from all the time and it’s far, far from enough. This needs to come from the top to have an effect, but most, if not all, governments have their lips firmly between the cheeks of very large economic interests that need their diagrams to always be pointing up, no matter what.
I don’t know. If they weren’t such fascist autocratic ass kissers I’d be tempted to join lemmygrad. Revolution, baby. Seriously though, people here seem like an intelligent and rather handsome lot with their hearts in all the right places, so I ask you, what the fuck can we do?
I leave you with a pic of my cat to take the edge off.
What the fuck is wrong with people?
How much time do you have for an answer?
All the time in the world if you can answer my second question instead. 😀
We’re pretty much in the “find out” phase at this point. It’s not pointless to make an effort to improve the world, but the reality is more and more people are so focused on trying to survive that there’s no energy left.
I turn 44 next month, and the most purchasing power I’ve had was on the first day of my first job a month after 9/11. Newspaper editing was in retrospect a poor industry to go into, but what we faced starting 15 years ago is now what everybody’s facing: the industries willing to pay for experience are niche, those jobs are only available if you met the right people in college, and everyone else is expected to smile and pay more than half their wages to housing.
I know every generation thinks they have things uniquely bad, but for those younger than me, the '80s and '90s were an era where people still bought a house to live in, not as a way to make money in three years. Starter homes were still being built. That’s what we were told to expect. Work your ass off in your 20s and 30s, fix your housing costs and enjoy the income experience nets you.
It’s a farce. My annual raise this year vis-a-vis my rent increase has left me with a singularly shitty choice: food or rent. No, I shouldn’t have to get a roommate decades into my career. No, I shouldn’t need a side hustle. Those are the options people immediately jump to, which comes with a starting proposition of: you don’t deserve the basics your landlord did.
Fuck that. I’m not renewing my apartment lease. I’ll find a vehicle I can live in and deal with the hassles of that instead of the first $20K a year I make after taxes and after insurance going to someone who got into the property market while it was about places to live instead of gambling.
I relay all this because the answer I found is not participating in the parts of society that will never benefit me. The only way I’ve found to lessen the existential dread is to question more and more assumptions that were fed to me growing up.
The right is willing to resort to credible threats of violence to achieve their selfish ends, even if it results in the destruction of all life on Earth.
Meanwhile, otherwise decent people on the political left are too cowardly and comfortable to take the measures that are necessary to protect our world.
If you’re implying what I think you’re implying, violence is rarely the way to go. It feeds on itself and those who are best at it or most inclined to use it tend to rise to the top and those are not the kind of people you want running things when the smoke has cleared. Those people tend to continue using those same methods that worked to get them where they are. History has numerous examples of when well meaning movements that came to power through violence and turned to crap afterwords because the leaders continued using violence to stay in power. Be very wary of simple solutions to complex problems.
You are right in the sense that change is needed and change never comes easy. I think it is a mistake to blame the people, despite my click-baity first question above. People are just trying to get by and do not see a way to improve things. If you got a mortgage and a couple kids you gotta feed and the boss is on your back with ever more work and there’s just not enough time in the day, it is bloody hard to let go of that responsibility and join the revolution. Most people just want to get by and are too tired to do anything else. They are also fed an endless stream of propaganda that you got to succeed and if you just work hard you’re gonna get rich one day. It is all lies, of course, but it is not easy to see through all that massive indoctrination that you’ve been forcefed since you were born. The shitty schools does not help much either.
Yes, people are too comfortable. But if your life is anything like I described above, you’re too bloody tired not to be. You just want to get a few hours to watch the TV or look through your Facebook feed before you crash into bed with a few beers to numb the pain. People are still believing in the rugged individualism and it must be their own fault if they don’t succeed. (Or some scary minority’s fault) It is a very compelling story. Letting go of all the things you’ve been told your whole life isn’t easy and there are very powerful forces doing all they can to prevent people from realizing they’ve been had. It’s much easier to lie to someone than convincing them they’ve been lied to. Do not blame the people, blame the system.
It’s all game theory. If I do everything right, restrain my reproductive urge, reduce my resource consumption etc., if most others don’t chime in, it will achieve nothing. The gasoline I’m not using means our oil reserves worldwide will last two seconds longer, but it will still all be burned.
Even if every single human being on earth would be willing to join a covenant to save the environment, there is no one to orchestrate it, and therefore the majority despairs over humanities stupidity and can’t do anything.
The same is on government level: If one state did everything right, globally the other governments would use up the saved resources. And therefore the electorate won’t elect a really environment-friendly party because it only results into the own country reducing the standard of living, increasing it for others temporarily.
The only solution would be a global alliance. We surprisingly managed it for the ozone hole, but we won’t this time.
I still try to live environment friendly, but in my heart I have no hope of humanity solving this chrisis, and a lot will go to shit in my lifetime still (next 30 years). Maybe enough will survive to maintain the species.
I too feel like that a lot of the time. The problem with using game theory, is that game theory only works for a zero sum game. This isn’t a zero sum game. Making us believe that is part of the propaganda. Helping someone else to a better life does not make your life worse. Our whole success as a species is proof plenty of that. A group of people helping each other is more successful than being alone and trying to fend for yourself. The propaganda is trying to make us forget that. Unfortunately, our whole economic system is built like it is a zero sum game and that is reflected in the values of society and the US is perhaps the most clear cut example of this. It is all lies. We must, however, widen the scope of our thinking. The community isn’t just your little patch of dirt. It is the whole world. Helping another part of the world or other people will make it better for you as well in the long run. Even if it temporarily inconveniences you, welcoming people who can’t survive in their patch of dirt to yours, will strengthen you in the long run. Even better is to stop exploiting other people so they can have a good life at home and doesn’t need to work 18 hour shifts to make plastic shit we don’t even need. It’s not a zero sum game and we need to stop believing that it is.
game theory only works for a zero game
Traditional game theory did, current game theory doesn’t
This situation has some similarities with the Prisoners dilemma, although not entirely
I think there are a lot of things that could mitigate this, if we are lucky, such as:
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solar and/or other power sources becoming more efficient and cheap to the point that it becomes the most practical and cheapest solution, not just the most environmentally friendly one. This also is appealing from a geopolitical perspective for nations because it reduces or removes dependence on foreign oil.
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the production of microbial-based, artificially grown meat and dairy (milk, cheese) that is indistinguishable from the real thing and much cheaper than it (see also: most rennet in cheese is now microbial rennet, rather than rennet harvested from calves, because it’s cheaper), plus the expansion/improvement of alternative non-dairy/meat products.
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the fact the most environmentally friendly parties currently are also in favor of standard of living improvement policies like universal healthcare, etc.
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the fact the youngest generations of voters are growing up exposed to the consequences of climate change and will expect to be alive to see it get even worse
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dramatic climate events like the recent India heatwave that had a high death toll because it was above the highest temperature humans can survive in.
It is also currently only a handful of countries that produce the vast majority of the problem, to the detriment of everybody else, so the agreement need not initially include every country in the world.
I do think we need better methods of carbon sequestration (taking it back out of the atmoaphere vs putting less of it in) urgently at this point however.
Edit: I do not think there is any feasible long term solution that doesn’t include ditching capitalism as it currently exists. A circular econimics model might work, but the current “line goes up forever, don’t ask when it ends” system is inherently unsustainable on every level.
You are right about all of that, and particularly the first one is actually an immediate advantage. We had a flourishing renewable energy industry in Germany ~15 years ago. With a little subsidy we could have been technological leaders.
Unfortunately, the conservative politicians at the time were “advised” (bribed) by “industry leaders” from coal and nuclear industry, and saving existing jobs by pumping money up their asses was the better strategy to secure the next election than creating thousands of new jobs by supporting the new industries.
The second one (lab meat), but I expect there will be a lot of in-fight between environmentalists, some opposing it for not being natural and others embracing it for being environment friendly. In the EU, there isn’t even a permission requested to be able to sell it.
The younger generation might be more motivated, but they have the same problem if they save resources, others will waste it in their place.
The disaster in India doesn’t change anything, it just proves what we already knew. The numbers are shocking to a rational thinker, but emotional stories like the Titan submarine still grab the headlines.
I think the main problems are the fully industrialised nations, but developing nations are catching up, and they won’t want to be held back in their development by wealthy nations telling them to.
Some suggestions that might actually help, huh? Novel idea, that. Not trying to put you down, It was more of a comment about what the rest of this conversion’s been about.
I think you are pretty much right on in your reasoning and we need more people to realize this and get angry enough to demand action. Even the most stubborn denialists will start to figure out that there is something not quite right about the weather phenomena we are seeing more and more frequently and with larger amplitudes than ever before. Question is if they realize soon enough. Because some serious action needs to happen like yesterday if we want to stop this. As much as I would like to implement space communism, it is a tough sell and it it needs to happen slowly. Otherwise we’ll just be making another Stalin/Mao-type society and that’s not really ideal to say the least. Regardless of what the tankies in lemmygrad would have us believe. I don’t really have an easy solution on hand, I’m pretty much winging it as I go. Easy solutions to complex problems rub me the wrong way as well, even if they are an easier sell. This is why it is so important to have discussions like this. Crowd-source a solution, if you will. But mainly to raise awareness and gain buy-in from as many people as possible. Corporations been pretty successful in dumping all the responsibility on us and therefore avoiding a lot of costs in cleaning up. Take bottles for example. In the later Cambrian period when I was young, soda came in glass bottles and soda companies were responsible for the whole life cycle of the bottle. This is a lot more expensive than letting the customers take the responsibility for the trash, but more importantly, they’re off the hook for all the plastic bottles that’s dumped everywhere. They can even have campaigns telling us to be responsible with the trash they produce and not having to deal with it themselves. Win-win. We need to shift the responsibility back to the corporations again. Don’t fall for the old “we just give customers what they want”-routine. It is just trying to shift the blame for their lack of responsibility while producing the goods we buy. I’d they can’t make their products without fucking the world up, they shouldn’t make them at all. I’m quoting from memory here, so correct me when I’m wrong. Just one hundred companies are responsible for over 30%(?) of the world’s CO2 emissions and they tell us we need to save the world by recycling? Give me a break. And ducking (autocorrect, but I’m keeping it) abolish Citizens United already. The US isn’t a democracy even on paper anymore.
Slightly off topic - I saw a pretty interesting video by Abagail of Philosophy tube about the morality and legality of protests and the examples that were used was based on a protest on a coal mine in Germany some years ago. This is likely preaching to the quire in this community, but if you’ve not seen Philosophy tube before, you really should check it out. I’m a proud patron there, myself. 😊 Sorry to make you use google to find it, but that’s how lazy I am. To come clean, some of the butchered points above may originally be from her. I think. I have a terrible memory for who said what.
what the fuck can we do?
Save yourself. Be the example, even if you are only an example to your family or to your block. Know you are not alone. Join up with others and make a difference where you can. Be the good apple. Ration your energy and effort.
I’ve watched people I know burn out obsessively trying to change the world, I’ve watched others turn their back on the world and go whole-hog into selfishness.
There is a middle ground for each of us. Find it and occupy it. And have the courage to be kind.
Yeah, came on a bit strong, didn’t I? But you are right of course. I’m not really such a grouch as this comment may have implied. Sad thing is, I’m old enough and lucky enough to probably be dead before the shit really hits the fan. It’s the young that’s gonna feel the brunt of it, and possibly sooner than they expect. I grew up in the 70s and we had hope and a feeling that pretty much anything was possible. The cold war was a bit of a bummer, but the feeling was that we could change things for the better if we tried hard enough. I don’t see that anymore and I’m pretty sad about it.
I know I’ll be ok. Probably. But it’s not about me. I’ve had a pretty good life, all things considered. Ups and downs, sure, but it’s the hopelessness of these times that worry me. We had hope for a better future and kids today won’t have that. All because my generation and those before us are selfish fucks who only look to number one.
I don’t know that it will be ok, but I’m certain it will be different. I see the US emotionally and culturally sliding down the same slope that Russia is going down. I figure they’re 10-15 years ahead of us.
Remember how excited we all were when the Berlin Wall fell? We had that Jesus Jones song roaring in our souls.
There is a wave of negativity and helplessness being thrown at us. We are being driven to be passive, to shrug our shoulders and go buy something to give our lives meaning. Our helpless selfishness feeds profits for others.
We must disengage from that helpless/selfish/profit way of life. It will destroy us. It will eat us up from the inside and leave us hollow and empty.
That doesn’t mean we have to move off-grid and become self-sufficient hermits. It can be as simple as learning to mend our clothes so we don’t buy as many new ones, and not buying into the shame of wearing mended clothes. (Visible mending is punk as fuck.) It can be as simple as saying thank you to cashiers, holding the door for that overloaded mother at the doctor’s office, giving others the benefit of the doubt. (Kindness is punk as fuck, too.) It can be as fulfilling and challenging as joining or creating a knitting group or live music jam or walking club. (Community is also punk as fuck.)
