The difference is that those men are not objectified. Yes, those bodies are unrealistic indeed, but those beefcake guys are not presented as sex objects who have no other purpose in this world than to please women.
I get the feeling that you never hang out with a group of gals on a night out
I’m a woman, I have had many girls nights out with sex positive women… And yet no drooling over sexy superheros (or any other dudes)
I haven’t had a conversation like that since I was a teenager, many many years ago. (And even then it wasn’t hulked out guys we were giggling over, it was Nsync. Fully clothed.)
Oh yes, Thor is oiled up and shirtless while Natalie Portman ogles him for the entire first movie because… It looks powerful? It represents his stoicism? Definitely not a sexual objectification thing, oh no sir
Tbf you can be ogled and not objectified. The difference is that Thor absolutely is portrayed as a complex character with his own agency, or subjectivity. The whole movie is about him learning to step out of the role of warmonger and into a more mature, nurturing role of a king. That gives him a lot of subjectivity - the opposite of objectivity
Edit: So to clarify, yes Thor is part of a series of unrealistic body standards for men. But he’s not objectified
In social philosophy, objectification is the act of treating a person as an object or a thing. It is part of dehumanization, the act of disavowing the humanity of others. Sexual objectification, the act of treating a person as a mere object of sexual desire, is a subset of objectification,
Emphasis mine. Where in “Thor” is Thor dehumanized? Do the creators of the movie dehumanize him? No, if anything he exhibits more humanity as the movie goes on. Does Jane Foster dehumanize him? No, she’s clearly sexually attracted to him and some scenes do focus on his body, but that’s not enough to dehumanize someone. He is not a “mere object of sexual desire” because those scenes exist amid an entire movie that treats Thor with respect as a character, including Jane who gets to know him and love him. The only character who dehumanizes him could be Loki but he’s clearly portrayed as being wrong
Tbf you can be ogled and not objectified
I gotta get me some of that copium, looks like the good stuff.
The difference is that Thor absolutely is portrayed as a complex character with his own agency, or subjectivity.
So is Black Widow, but she is 100% leathered up sex symbol too and no one questions that.
Tbf you can be ogled and not objectified. The difference is that Thor absolutely is portrayed as a complex character with his own agency, or subjectivity.
By that definition, no female main character of a film ever has been objectified.
It does look powerful though. He looks super strong and has an incredibly hot women who is into him, many guys want to live that fantasy.
Do you think Natalie Portman was ogling him because she thought he looked hot and the camera happened to catch her staring or do you think it was written into the script?
I simply don’t see women clamoring for men to go to these extremes. I’m not saying doesn’t happen, I just don’t think it’s very often. And it’d be super cool if the men on this thread would take comments from women about our own experiences at face value and not assume we’re what? Being coy about what we actually find attractive?
Do you find that the men in romantic movies and chickflicks have body types as unobtainable as the dudes in superhero movies? Like, yes they’re fit, but they don’t tend to have bulging muscles because women don’t tend to be into that.
There’s a difference between a movie with attractive people in it, and a movie with someone who had to dedicate themselves to their fitness for months and still had to do things like dehydrate themselves for the day of the shoot to achieve a sculpted look. They’re worlds away in terms of effort to achieve the desired effect. And women do not tend to be into the “dehydrate yourself to look more cut” look.
The point isnt that men aren’t given unrealistic body goals, they definitely ARE, but the push isn’t coming from women, generally.
Brandon Routh is what I imagine as “chick flic” bod. He’s in shape but I wouldn’t say he’s at all “unrealistic” or idealised bodybuilder muscular. Also let’s not forget one of the world’s most popular chick flicks of all time, The Notebook, had Cage as the lead.
Brandon Routh and Ryan Gosling are kinda regular guys? I took the OP’s meme as poking a little fun at the idea of unrealistic male body image in media, but now I’m thinking that there’s a real issue.
Seriously, a couple of square-jawed, six-foot-tall men with lustrous, full heads of hair, who have personal trainers and make working out a full-time job before a movie role? That’s realistic?
It happens, but it’s not pervasive. There’s nothing wrong with sexual imagery in a vacuum.
The issue for women is the sheer avalanche of bullshit. Images of half naked women with unrealistic bodies are EVERYWHERE. Billboards, magazine covers, commercials, etc.
It’s okay to discuss men’s issues without needing to whatabout them. Women’s issues are also valid. This isn’t a competition it’s about media creating body dysmorphia in people.
If you think they aren’t objectified that’s your own lack of perspective.
Reminds me of the “everyone has sinful urges” anti-gay pastors
“Buff men are built for the male gaze”
My guy, I have some news for you
As a woman, who is into men, and has friends who are also into men. Everyone I know who is into men would say Hiddleston is more attractive than any of them.
When we say buff men are there for the male gaze what we’re saying is that they’re filling a male power fantasy of being the “big strong hero” archetype. You’ll also notice that all of them were depicted as being complex characters in their own right, absent of just being big and buff.
I really feel like this misses the point. And it sells both men and women short.
The most cruel part of depictions like this isn’t simply that the opposite sex is or isn’t drooling over them. It’s that they are presented as ideal and desirable physiques.
This impacts how people feel like they should aspire to look. And that impacts how they feel about their own bodies.
It is so reductive to focus just on whether these bodies are objectified by the opposite sex. It’s the internal struggle people are faced with that is the real issue.
I think you have a point except for the fact that the meme is about unrealistic body standards, not objectification. So it’s kinda like bringing up pancakes in a conversation about waffles
But why does the meme has to take a jab at the problems women face? It’s undebatable that women are faced with unrealistic body standards all the time. And I don’t get why the meme has to try and take away from that.
The thing is on both sides it’s for the male gaze. Women are are objectified for men (look how sexy she is, don’t you want this?), and men are objectified for men (look how strong and handsome he is, don’t you want to be like him?)
men are objectified for men (look how strong and handsome he is, don’t you want to be like him?)
If you think women aren’t enjoying the male eye candy, I have some news for you
Reread my comment and you’ll find I never said or claimed that. But that’s not the primary reason it’s done. Women aren’t the primary demographic for comic books and comic book movies. Superhero men are drawn the way they are for the male gaze, and women are drawn the way they are for the male gaze. If some women like it too, that’s just a bonus for the publishers. This translates onto the screen.
Man, you shifted those goalposts fast! You’ve been doing this a long time, haven’t you?
My partner and I tried to come up with an example of a character built for the female gaze. The best we could do was Idris Elba as a Jinn from 3000 Years of Longing.
Edit: I think you all are missing the point.
From Wikipedia
In cinematic representations of women, the male gaze denies the woman’s human agency and human identity to transform her from person to object — someone to be considered only for her beauty, physique, and sex appeal, as defined in the male sexual fantasy of narrative cinema.
So while women might like looking at the men in Magic Mike or watching nameless romcoms, the women in the stories have no agency. The men might serve their every need and save them from whatever situation, but the men are still doing all the things, and they follow the men-in-charge storyline.
Surprised you could only think of Idris! Would say he’s definitely female gaze in most of his roles. Off the top of my head, and as a woman who talks about celeb ‘crushes’ with other women, the tops are:
- Stanley Tucci in literally anything.
- Tom Hiddleston (Loki had way more female attention than Thor)
- Jack Black as Bowser
- David Harbour as Jim Hopper
- Sean Austin (in general, but also as Bob in ST)
- Paul Rudd (again, in almost anything)
- Pedro Pascal (particularly as Joel)
- Hugh Jackman in musicals (as opposed to being Wolverine)
All examples of men who, for the most part, are not obvious sex symbols in their roles, all of whom women go absolutely wild for.
Just a tangent: In my film class back in school, they defined the male gaze by what the camera focuses on, i.e. does it mimic what a straight, male viewer would focus on. Whether a character is “designed for the male gaze” is kind of squishy, and debatable, but the mechanical, film-studies definition of male gaze is indisputable. Once you see it, you can’t unsee how many times a female character is introduced by panning up her body.
