They don’t have a brain really and kinda just float there. Do they even feel pain?
After having kept jellyfish as pets (Atlantic bay nettles), I wouldn’t really consider them to be vegetarian nor vegan. While similar to plants, seemed to have a greater sense of environmental awareness than my plants. Mine could sense light, have “off days”, and interact with their environment. It’s probably true that there’s not much going on there due to the small amount of nerves that control everything, but even when mine would accidentally get caught on tank cleaning tools or get bumped around they’d react in a protective way and to me it’s just similar enough to animalistic behavior that I’d not feel comfortable consuming them if I were vegan.
Don’t most plants sense light and interact with their environment?
Tardigrades have been observed reacting defensively to danger, even offensively. I know they’re not plants, but do they feel pain? What about brine shrimp?
Jellyfish are super weird because they really blur the lines between plant/animal. It’s a really interesting question to ask honestly.
So is this theory of veganism to not cause pain to an animal? If so what about ethically sourced meat. Like bullet to the head/decapitation. Most of those creatures feel nothing, they just end.
Or is it to not eat anything that comes from the an organism from the Animalia kingdom because harming animals is immoral?
After proofreading, these sound more aggressive/argumentative than i had intended but they get the point across.
Veganism means to reduce the suffering and exploitation of animals as much as practically possible.
There is nothing ethical about killing a living being that doesn’t want to die.
I mean, sometimes its ethical. Its kind of unnecessary (and therefore immoral) at the scale of modern meat farms. But on a more individual level with like subsistence hunting/livestock, i dont feel like there are any ethical problems. Like if you need food or you will die, animals lives are worth less than humans lives…
I thought it had less to do with suffering and exploitation (animals do this to each other, no way to stop that nor should we) but more to do with climate change. Cattle farms are causing massive climate change for instance.
Tell that to lions and eagles. They cause as much suffering as possible. It’s just how nature works. It’s why I really don’t care about veganism.
It’s the second one. In the first case, you unnecessarily kill an animal. A fair question would be if it was a natural death of the animal, like you stumbled upon a fresh carcass, is eating that still ethically or morally gray?
But that’s not the point, veganism makes sense in first world countries with factory farming. It’s very clear that mass produced animal products are no go’s.
So is this theory of veganism to not cause pain to an animal? If so what about ethically sourced meat. Like bullet to the head/decapitation. Most of those creatures feel nothing, they just end.
lots (propably most) animals used for farming meat are in pain during their lives.
That’s longer than the time they’re dying in any case.
I understand that completely, death isn’t where the suffering usually occurs. This brings me to another question that i proposed in response to a different comment.
I had family that raised a cow to eventually become meat. It was named Tasty and lived up to its namesake. Tasty was treated well and killed quickly and cleanly. Is that, like, bad?
At this time it is impossible to know if they feel pain. They’re a living creature.
If you want to minimize plant death, going vegan is still the right move.
Most of the crops we grow go to feeding animals that people eat.
They told me Lemmy would be more leftist, why am I still seeing 0 IQ vegan jokes
That’s lemmy.ml. I think most of us just want this to be a place with less politics and extremism on either side because it’s exhausting.
Plants also react to being harmed, so it’s arguable they don’t feel pain.
I remember reading that some species of plants release a specific chemical or audio frequency (I can’t remember which) in response to being cut down, and this chemical is detected by other nearby plants that cause them to become stiffer or something along those lines. Whether that meana the plants feel pain or not, there isn’t anything conclusive. I think it would be pretty hard to feel pain without a nervous system, but its possible that what constitutes pain doesn’t need a nervous system or pain receptors at all. Im not a scientific expert, I just tried to be funny.
plants are not “creatures”, neither are animals.<br> both are indeed living evolutures ;)
We may be able to tell if they are stressed, which could be related to pain, depending on your viewpoint.
Here is a recent study of audible reactions plant can have to stress: https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)00262-3
Do plants react to stress and harmful situations like infestation? Absolutely. Do they actually feel pain as we understand it? Probably not since they lack a nervous system.
This boils down to the question: What is pain?
There is no evidence that they do.
You say this, but do you know anything about the research and science in this regard?
Here’s one intro clip from Wikipedia, there are also many thousands of scientific studies related to learning about how different organisms feel things if you want to learn:
Crustaceans fulfill several criteria proposed as indicating that non-human animals may experience pain. These fulfilled criteria include a suitable nervous system and sensory receptors; opioid receptors and reduced responses to noxious stimuli when given analgesics and local anaesthetics; physiological changes to noxious stimuli; displaying protective motor reactions; exhibiting avoidance learning; and making trade-offs between noxious stimulus avoidance and other motivational requirements.
That is kinda what I was hinting at. If we define pain as something that causes a defensive (or similar) reaction, then sure: Plants react to “pain” in their own way. I have never seen a jellyfish react to “pain” though.
When my chinchilla starts barking, it’s easy to assume that he is in pain or otherwise uncomfortable, but to say that he is truly in pain is impossible. However, when animals hurt their foot and start limping, it’s a good theory that they are reacting to pain. My examples only include mammals though, to your point.
Excuse my rambling. I am not disagreeing with you, but just thinking out loud.
It is impossible to know anything for sure. You can just go with what is the most plausible within our current knowledge. Jellyfish posses a very simple nervous system, even less complex than that of insects. Personally I don’t think it’s possible for them to suffer but since there is no reason to be cruel to them why should I endorse it?
Jellyfish eat animals and animal byproducts, so no, they are not vegan.
Jokes aside, often vegans follow dietary restrictions for reasons other than an ethical or moral belief against causing pain. Many vegans don’t even eat honey, so I imagine jellyfish is pretty safely in non-vegan territory.
Many fertilizers are made from animal products. Are veggies grown with those fertilizers vegan?
Nothing is 100% vegan. Animals have existed on this planet for hundreds of millions of years, and they are a part of its composition. Soil is just fully decomposed plants and animals. No matter how vegan you want to be, you can’t escape eating something that has fed on animal parts directly or indirectly.
I have heard there are vegans who won’t eat figs since there’s a decent chance of a dead wasp in a fig due to how fig wasps procreate.
If no, what about coprophagic mushrooms (I’m not aware of any fungi that are both edible and coprophagic and also produce fruiting bodies aka mushrooms big enough to possibly harvest)?
Depends what you consider edible. Some varieties of psilocybe grow directly on poop.
they feel pain, communicate, reproduce, move around, why are plants any different than animals? honest question
Here’s a good video on why vegans don’t eat honey. Beekeeping is really just another form of factory farming.
Can’t agree fully.
My mother has a hive in the garden. The bees pollinate our garden, live lives as nice as bee’s lives can be and, at the end of the year, we take some of their honey and replace it with sugar, which the bees don’t care about.
It’s a win-win, nobody is hurt, nobody is taken advatage of.
Two things.
1 - It’s the backyard chicken problem. Yes your mom doesn’t harm them, but when producing at scale people care less about not harming them
2 - Replacing their honey with sugar is not good because it lacks the vitamins and nutrients that honey has. It’s very possible that you don’t take all the honey so they are never harmed by the actions, but when farming at scale people will absolutely push the limit.
No Brain? For Jellyfish, No Problem
“I think sometimes people use its lack of a brain to treat a jellyfish in ways we wouldn’t treat another animal,” Helm says. “There are robots in South Korea that drag around the bay and suck in jellyfish and shred them alive. I’m a biologist and sometimes sacrifice animals, but I try to be humane about it. We don’t know what they are feeling, but they certainly have aversion to things that cause them harm; try to snip a tentacle and they will swim away very vigorously. Sure, they don’t have brains, but I don’t think that is an excuse to put them through a blender.”
If you care about brainless animals, you might as well care about plants.
Ok, but the question was whether or not they feel pain. We can definitively say they display escape behaviors when presented with an aversive stimulus, so I’d say it’s likely they do feel some sort of pain, even if their perception of it is nothing like that displayed by animals with central nervous systems.
The morality of shredding them alive by the thousands is a different conversation, but I would say yes, nature is cruel, and yes, it’s possible for humans to mimic nature and kill animals in similar ways, but humans also have a knack for taking things too far, eg chickens bred to be so big they can’t even walk or jellyfish-murdering robots
We can definitely say they display escape behaviours when presented with an adverse stimulus, so I’d say it’s likely they do feel some sort of pain
It’s ironic that your username is “protist”, since even many single cell organisms display escape behaviours when presented with an adverse stimulus.
This is one of those things that’s hard to define. If a popcorn kernel gets too hot, it pops and it’s almost like it’s trying to run from the heat. How is that different from a jellyfish reaction to pain? There’s a lot of good arguments on both sides.
Sometimes, I wonder how far away we really are from the popcorn kernel.
But everyone and everything rather avoid pain, wouldn’t they? And if I would like to treat those the way I would like to be treated, then why not try to help mitigate that pain where possible?
The follow up question would be what us and isn’t pain.
If a bacterium swimming in one direction encounters a toxin and changes direction to avoid dying, did it experience pain? If a tobacco plant reacts to attacks from insects by producing more nicotine and alerting its neighbours to do the same through signals sent through both rhizomes and airborne pheromones, does it experience pain? What about a worker ant, whose behaviour can be perfectly simulated by an algorithm simple enough that you can simulate hundreds of ants interacting?
Personally, I’d say none of these organisms are capable of feeling pain. Or if they are with the help of some definitions of what constitutes pain, it’s just a signal like an automated assembly machine getting a signal from its sensors that a human entered its work space and it needs to slow down its robot arm to snails pace. So still incapable of suffering.
Also, if you set the threshold for what constitutes the ability for suffering too low, you quickly collide with the ethics of even early term abortion.
They are animals, so no.
