Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
About when they start going on about “Zionists” Is where I draw the line and where it typically takes a turn.
As a Jewish person, I find it healthy to criticize the Israeli government. Most young Israelis do. Their government has been steamrolled by a wannabe dictator that is corrupt as hell and his team of racist, backwards conservative orthodox buddies.
They were just protesting in the streets weeks ago and now we’re expected to turn around and support the government? Nah. This doesn’t change anything.
The problem is a lot of people don’t differentiate between the israeli government and the israeli people as a whole - i’ve seen some straight up ‘they had it coming’ style bullshit that is verrry careful to place Good Jews and Bad Jews (the festival goers) to try and get a pass on antisemitsm and maaaan it is transparent as fuck.
No child is to blame about any of this. And when I think about this (i’m sorry) very stupid conflict, all I can think is people killing children because of land. FUCKING DIRT. Not a specific people, just people, humans, killing children becuase a piece o land, that to be fair it fits everyone! That is of a stupidity that I can not fathom
What are you talking about? I know Jewish people that openly condemn the behavior of their gov. A person is good or bad depending on their actions - you cannot lump everyone together based on whatever characteristics you want and after that starting a genocide campaign.
The festival goes were just normal people like you and me that were trying to live and enjoy life. Same with the innocent people that are dying in Gaza.
I’m talking about commentary i’ve seen. People very careful to say ‘i’m not an antisemite buuuuuuut’
Yeah. Sure.
I must admit, it’s quite refreshing to hear a critical take on the Israeli government from a Jewish person. I don’t know if it’s due to the news sources and forums I typically frequent (e.g. BBC, Guardian, etc), but I feel like it’s quite rare to hear an opinion from someone who actually lives there or who practices the religion.
It’s also quite reassuring (as a fairly ignorant outside observer who is only beginning to learn the tiniest bit about the complex and bloody history of this region) to hear that not every Jewish person or every Israeli likes the way that the state is developing.
Edit: I made some language changes because upon re-reading the parent comment I realised that the poster didn’t actually say whether they lived in Israel or not and I had made a faulty assumption.
IDK about the person you’re responding to, but
who actually lives there or who practices the religion.
There are a lot of Jews that don’t fit into either of those categories. Ethnic and cultural Jewish people that don’t practice or believe in Judaism as a religion are very common. I call myself Jewish, because my mother and my grandmother are Jewish, but I don’t practice the religion. I’d recommend googling Jewish Atheism and Jewish Secularism for more info.
You cannot separate Zionism from the formation of the state of Israel and how the history of the conflict has been shaped since.
In order to obtain a more holistic perspective of the conflict people need to know about Zionism, it’s history, and how it currently affects Israeli leadership.
There are still people alive on both sides that lived through Zionist conflicts with the British Mandate and the Nakba.
I’m one of the Israelis who frequently attended the anti-government protest.
I expect you not to support the Israeli government, but to support the Israeli people’s right to defend ourselves from terrorists.
Regardless of whether Israel has a right wing or left wing government, we will not allow thousands of us to be massacred.
We won’t stand by and twiddling our thumbs waiting for the next Hamas attack to kill more of us without responding with our full force.
None of this contradicts the fight to end the occupation. You can be anti-Hamas and anti-occupation at the same time.
Nuance is possible!
Then how about your government stop killing and abusing Palestinians. It’s almost as if decades of apartheid oppression, murder, and human rights abuses have consequences
They specifically stated that they where attending anti-governmsnt protests. 🙄
I would say isreal has a right to defend itself, but not if they keep stealing land and oppressing the people who attack them.
If you want to defend yourself, first, you have to stop attacking the people who you claim to be defending against.
Hamnas is human garbage, but one can not separate the creation of Israel from the ghettoizing of the Palestinian people.
Nobody deserves terrorist attacks, but this didn’t come out of the blue.
Isreal needs to own up to it’s complicity in the violence before they try to claim to be the sole victims of it.
Could you elaborate on the “zionist” thing? I haven’t really followed the Israel situation (I tried, but it’s just so complicated). What I heard, is that “zionist” is used when talking about the Israel activity in “taking” territory from the surrounding area, is that correct or did I just misunderstand? If I’m not wrong, then what happens when people start going on about it?
The idea that discussing Zionism is a sign of an anti-semite is a shit take. The Zionist movement worked very hard to establish a colony in the middle east, in an area where they knew there were already natives and those natives were hostile to being colonized. It’s impossible to truly study the founding of Israel without learning about the Zionist movement.
This isn’t about religion, or even very much about race. It’s about the powerful asserting their will over the powerless. To some extent you could argue that the Zionists were used by the British to screw over the Arabs, but that doesn’t make the Zionists innocent.
Equating discussions of Zionism with anti-Semitism is part of the Israeli propaganda playbook for dismissing all criticism of Israel’s founding.
The idea that discussing Zionism is a sign of an anti-semite is a shit take.
There is some history to back this up, especially among older folks. I know I’ve heard a few irl antisemitic tirades start off with a testing of the waters by complaining about Zionists
Although for real, Jewish people are cool and great, but fuck Zionists.
People should really stop conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Unfortunately it’s very common and even part of the official classifications used by some countries. To me it seems obvious that this is another attempt to cut off any criticism of the state of Israel by labeling critics as anti-Semitic. Here’s an interesting read about how flawed that logic is:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic
During war politics change from stupid stuff like the judicial system to whether or not you will be alive tomorrow. Everything they were complaining about has ceased to matter (temporally, they will go back to arguing once the war ends)
I don’t see why people are saying Israel has no right to exist, it might have it’s problems but it isn’t genocidal in any way
Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
Nothing lemmy.world loves more than bagging on the *.ml instance, so I’m going to take a wild guess at the latter. If it was self-referential “Me looking at all the antisemitism on lemmy.world” it never would have received this much positive attention.
I’m a big proponent of understanding folk better. Zionism is one of those terms with subtext. Acquaintances I know who use it (some of whom I can believe not understanding the subtext) do a better job explaining that they don’t support ethnostates rather than they don’t support zionism.
But to be fair my experience is mostly people half a globe away trying to look like they’re staying current and relevant in the news and trying to show sympathy with people they view as oppressed and hurt, without taking the time to truly dig into the history of the conflict and having never even heard the word intifada. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt while sharing with them the tiny bit I’ve learned. They do the same for me. We’ve got a wide variety of views at one of my lunch groups and it’s phenomenal.
I also disagree with many things the Israeli government does. But when people ignore the complete history of Israel and exclusively ventilate the pro-Palestinian propaganda, a red line is crossed for me.
The complete history of Israel forcing Palestinians into ghettos and systematically slaughtering them? The fact that they told civilians to flee to the south and then bombed the very area they claimed would be safe? The fact that they claim the right to self determination but refuse to allow the Palestinians the same right? The fact that netanyahu funded Hamas to destabilize the region so that he’d have pretense to carry out his war crimes?
I don’t condone the attacks by Hamas, but to pretend that Israel isn’t trying to carry out a genocide is crossing a red line for me.
This whole conflict has just always felt like a massive grey area as an outsider. Both sides have done horrible things over the years, with the retaliation often being even worse. Most governments (including mine) are actually supporting both sides, for example through humanitarian aid. That’s just kind of weird when you think about it, in a way they’re enabling both sides to keep going. And I just don’t know if there’s any way out of this besides one side completely destroying the other. Peace talks have been had so many times and it just doesn’t lead anywhere. It just feels inevitable.
What about the people ignoring complete history of the Palestinian people and blindly supporting Isreal?
They’re also doing more harm than good. This is an immensley complicated situation that requires nuance.
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people. Netanyahu’s government is a monster with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
Palestinians and people of Muslim faith are fine and nice people. Hamas leadership are monsters with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
This is probably the only time I will agree with the “both sides” take on this. My view on this is that it doesn’t mean I agree with killing innocents though. People at the top doing terrible things is no reason to condemn a whole people who very likely had little say in the matter.
If there’s one issue, ever, that you should be at least a little “both sides” on, it’s this one.
There’s no way you can honestly argue only one side of this.
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people.
The current state of the Israeli government and the intense fascist impulse driving its leaders to genocide would suggest “the average (enfranchised) Israeli” is maybe not as fine or as nice as we’d like to believe.
Engaging with any kind of online community of Israelis feels like I’m stepping into a Der Sturmer article, what with all the intense hate and vitriol aimed at virtually any non-Israeli.
Hamas leadership are monsters
Who, specifically, in Hamas leadership is a monster? Name some names. Is it the head of UNWRA? The chief physician at the Al-Shifa Hospital? The press editor at Al Jaazera magazine? The folks working at the World Central Kitchen?
Because I’ve heard all of these organizations are hosting Hamas leadership. I’ve yet to hear anything else about them that explains why they deserved to die, other than that they’re “Hamas Leadership” and “Hamas Leadership are monsters”.
People in Hamas leadership positions like Ghazi Hamad from this article, who can talk a big talk from the safety of outside Palestine and ignore their people’s suffering.
I don’t give a rats’ ass about Israel’s lies and deception calling everyone and anyone that disagrees with their genocidal tactics as a Hamas sympathizer. Yeah and I’m of the stance that Israeli has had no business being in there for months and are actively commiting genocide, killing a massive excess of civilians and disrupting humanitarian aid.
But make no mistake, just like there are hardcore religious evangelicals in the US there are emboldened religious warmongerers in Palestine who are equally blind to Palestinian suffering for a higher cause as the Israeli extremist government is.
People in Hamas leadership positions like Ghazi Hamad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazi_Hamad#Dialogue_with_G._Baskin_(Israel)
It sounds like Hamad has been instrumental in back channeling communications with the Israeli government. Also looks like he wasn’t in Gaza during the Al Aqsa Flood. Is he ignoring his neighbors’ suffering by reestablishing dialogue with his Israeli colleague and trying to end the hostilities? Or was he supposed to fling himself onto the bayonets at the Israel-Lebanon border after Gaza was sealed off by the Israelis?
I don’t give a rats’ ass about Israel’s lies and deception
You’re citing an article from the NYPost, so you clearly don’t mind at least a little bit of their lies and deception. You’ve picked out a guy who appears to be some kind of underground media publisher, amateur medic, and glorified border guard as a party leader and a “monster”.
Is there anything you’re citing more monstrous than his hatred of Israel?
But make no mistake, just like there are hardcore religious evangelicals in the US there are emboldened religious warmongerers in Palestine
To my knowledge, hardcore religious evangelicals in the US aren’t traditionally kettled in an open air prison and subject to targeted assassinations on the whims of New Atheist military commanders. I’m willing to give a guy like David Koresh a bit of leeway in his hatred of the American government, if for no other reason than the FBI surrounded his house and killed a dozen of his friends. I have significantly less sympathy for your Jerry Falwell Jrs and your James Dobsons.
I’ve got a family friend who lost 23 members of her immediate family in the course of a weekend, when the Israeli government began its carpet bombing of Gaza City. If she went into a full blown Mein Kempf rant after that, I could hardly blame her. But to claim she’s somehow a warmonger for hating the people who obliterated half her family tree?
Did we hold Americans to that standard after 9/11?
I’m a Jew and pretty sensitive to antisemitism, even dogwhistles. I admit I don’t go to lemmy.ml very often, but from what I’ve seen from lemmy.ml posters posting on lemmy.world, there’s been no antisemitism at all. In fact, I have not seen any antisemitism from anyone here that I can recall, which is pretty amazing in and of itself.
Opposition to Israel’s genocidal regime is not antisemitism.
If this had been Reddit, I’d have bought credits to award you a gold star.
Saying things that aren’t explicitly antisemitic but are basically hidden code for antisemitism. Such as “Globalists.”
See also major conspiracy theories implying there is a group of secret overlords who control everything behind the scenes.
Any time the supposed responsible party for some conspiracy is an unspecified they/them, that’s usually a sign that they’re trying to be sneaky about serving you a rewrite of blood libel.
Go actually look at the .ml worldnews community. There is full mask off “death to Israel” shit all over the place.
“Death to Israel” is also not antisemitic. Jews are not Israelis and Israelis are not Jews. I am not an Israeli. I have no ties or allegiances to Israel, nor do I want them. I think “death to Israel” is an extremist viewpoint, but not an antisemitic one.
Depends on who’s saying it, but not necessarily an anti-semitic phrase, sure.
When shouted by some dude at a campus protest in a nation two thousand miles away, probably not.
However, when Hamas or the Houthis say it, it definitely is.
Criticizing. Israel. Is. Not. Anti-semitism.
Is criticizing Saudi Arabia “Islamophobia”?
Putin’s propaganda wants russians to belive that criticizing Putin is rusophobia. This post looks exactly like Putin’s propaganda.
I know nothing about anything bad Ukraine has done, I don’t follow the war as much as I used to. I just see a lot of downvotes on anything critical of Ukraine
Anti Zionism ≠ Anti Semitism.
Some people wants every body human rights to be respected, and dennounce crimes against humanity that Israel and Hamas commits, one being an alleged country and the other a terrorist organization.
The right for self determination of Palestinians (and to live) is not being respected by Israel, so, with confidence I will say Free Palestine!
I think your tone is why you are getting down voted. You actually come off as the neckbeard with permanent Cheeto cheese stains on their fingers and half chewed food flying out of your mouth as you type.
The term antisemitism was created in Germany as a scientific sounding name for Judenhass(Jew Hatred).
Even though the root of Semite means people of the Semitic language group the usage of antisemitism has always been towards the Jews alone.
Zionism became a thing when antisemitism was really bad.
Israel became a thing when antisemitism went over itself and even casual antisemites looked in horror at what Nazis had done.
The Palestinian problem today is nested within centuries of the problem of antisemitism, coiling around and biting itself in the tail.
Anti-Zionism Opposition to Jewish ethnonationalism
Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism. Although anti-Zionism is a heterogeneous phenomenon, all its proponents agree that the creation of the modern State of Israel, and the movement to create a sovereign Jewish state in the region of Palestine – the biblical Land of Israel – was flawed or unjust in some way.
- wikipedia
Very few people are arguing for Hamas. Mostly for the civilians of Palestine. And even Hamas claims it’s changed somewhat since the original charter.
