Since October 7, more than 3,257 children have been reported killed, including at least 3,195 in Gaza, 33 in the West Bank, and 29 in Israel, according to the Ministries of Health in Gaza and Israel respectively. The number of children reported killed in just three weeks in Gaza is more than the number killed in armed conflict globally – across more than 20 countries – over the course of a whole year, for the last three years.
To make it perfectly clear - the fact that children are dying is reprehensible and it should be stopped. Even if one innocent child died, from both sides, it’s one too many.
That being said, this is a very good example of propaganda by partial information and numbers manipulations.
The UN report in question identifies anyone under the age of 18 as a child. The Al-Qassam brigades recruit teens from the age of 16 to active combative roles (some reports suggest an even younger age).
It’s impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens, and the UN report references that. The propaganda completely ignores this part and reframes this information as if more than 3,000 young and innocent children were slain.
It’s impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens,
And if they were armed teens, should we kill them? The ministry of health published the numbers. You can choose whatever age you deem acceptable for the Qassam Brigades and do some math to get the “real” number of children victims, if you like.
It’s impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens,
All of them are fucking children. Everyone under 18 is a child. Stop this bullshit.
Bigger font doesn’t make you more right.
You can choose whatever age you deem acceptable for the Qassam Brigades and do some math to get the “real” number of children victims
That’s just the thing with manipulating numbers - we can’t do the math. That’s why it’s so effective and why you need to apply critical reading to these kind of reports.
And if they were armed teens, should we kill them
Answer me this - say you have a group of people preparing to launch a rocket. That rocket is inaccurate but they aim it towards a city. There’s a high chance that you’ll be able to intercept it, but there’s always a chance that it’ll fall on a building and kill civilians.
You can target this group, drop a bomb on them and stop them from firing this rocket. Now you learn that 2 of them are 17 years old. Do you drop the bomb? Or do you let them fire the rocket?
It’s disingenuous to suggest however there isn’t a difference between civilians and fighters. Either way though, yeah, they’re all children. I don’t know if it’s more horrifying for a child soldier to be killed vs a civilian child either. It’s two different kinds of horror.
A worldwide charity that’s existed for 100 years, whose exclusive mission is trying to save children from war, is a very good example of propaganda? Please explain this, because you say that one is too many but then you say “don’t fall for this guys, it’s not nearly that many.”
Are you saying it’s ok to murder minors because they’re armed? Are you saying that’s why these minors were murdered? Do you have proof of this? Because your statements seem to be the ones which are unfounded and sound a lot like propaganda to excuse the murder of thousands of children.
A worldwide charity that’s existed for 100 years, whose exclusive mission is trying to save children from war, is a very good example of propaganda
Absolutely, 100%. Human rights organisations are not unbiased news outlets - they have agendas and objectives. Their objectives are commendable ones, and the work they do is invaluable, but they still utilise propaganda as a means to an end. As good and important as this end is, their reports should be received with the same amount of caution and critical thinking as any report coming from anyone with an objective in this.
you say that one is too many but then you say “don’t fall for this guys, it’s not nearly that many
That’s just a straw man. I never suggested that it’s not that many. It can be 3,257 and it could be 0. I just pointed out the information manipulation.
Are you saying it’s ok to murder minors because they’re armed
It’s never ok, but unfortunately this is war and war is shit. An ak47 in the hands of a 12 years old can kill just as well as one in the hands of a 20 years old.
Another point for you to consider is that traditionally, in the Philippines, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cambodia, many regions of Africa and essentially wherever there were children-soldiers, the ones that indoctrinated them, trained them and placed firearms in their hands were the ones who were blamed for their deaths.
You seem to hold Israel as the only one accountable for it.
They are the ones dropping the bombs on them in a city they surrounded with walls? When should they be held to account for these virtual murders? This is an offensive action, not a defensive one. These kids aren’t coming at soldiers in waves, they’re being crushed under rubble from bombs dropping on the places they are attempting to find safety. Whole families dying like that.
Making even Palestinian children look like potential terrorists is the real propaganda here. Easier to kill a child if you think they could be a soldier. You’re not able to confirm this nor can anyone, but you are prepared to go on this “hunch”, make children of Gaza less like children and more like military so that killing them is easier to stomach.
The only way to deescalate is to give Palestinians justice. There is no benefit to Israel from carpet bombing Gaza
So could you clarify your point:
- “kill every kid that’s holding a gun, no matter the age”, or
- kill kids between 16-18 as long as they hold a gun I am really curious.
And while at it, could you please clarify the morality of killing kids in their beds by bombing the houses they are living in? Or we should just preemptively kill any kid as they might turn into future terrorists.
Oh and by the way, I am pretty sure the Palestinian population are viewing the Israelian as terrorists and Hamas as liberators the same way you see Palestinians and IDF. So the terrorist designation all depends on the point of view and who’s in charge.
Not defending Hamas, giving you just some food for thought maybe and if you disagree with this statement, could you provide me a definition of a terrorist and try to apply it through the eye of the regular Gazan.
Eh, I generally feel like anything aimed at people under 18 in the context of an air bombardment is still not a justifiable murder. I’m with ya, Hamas fucked up. What they did is indefensible, but also taking a life from someone who hasn’t even had the opportunity to understand the world and the chance to make those bigger decisions from a grown place yet is very wrong to me.
If it’s a battle, back and forth, firing guns, kill or be killed, I guess that’s just how it shakes out. I don’t expect someone to just let themselves be shot there by a minor (whether they should be there is another story, but ok). But If you just have suspicions this kid is an enemy, or you see them with a gun, or hell you even have solid evidence that kid has been recruited as a child soldier, I don’t think you get to judge them with death by bomb outside the moment. That’s part of what’s so difficult in discussing or defining what constitutes a child soldier or a legitimate target. These kids already got robbed of so much in their ability to live a normal childhood. In America countless black kids were cast as “super predators” in the 90’s in much the same way. I respect where your coming from and don’t doubt your sincerity but believe we just have a difference of opinion on this matter.
According to this NPR article, the age range both you and the commenter are describing (15-19) represents 10.6% of the male population. The combined totals below them = 40.8% of the population. So what, a fifth = 639 of them in that age range died. Then what percentages of those deaths are militants? Say 50% So 320? Out of 3,195?
Obviously you can’t account for distribution and other factors without further info, but still I think that it’s more right than it is wrong then by any stretch of the imagination. You’ve stated similar stuff up the thread but I just don’t feel like to cast this as propaganda by numbers manipulation or partial information is a statement that can be taken at face value, given that the lack of numbers and information are a byproduct of intentional suppression by the power committing the offensive.
Hamas is a terrorist group.
Israel isn’t an equivalent. Its a fully fledged nation state with sophisticated military and intelligence agency. Israel’s behaviour should be measured based on how a nation state should act. Not a terrorist group.
If you think Israel is justified in killing children because Hama’s did. Your arguing Israel is a terrorist state, just one your sympathetic to.
I don’t think we should compare Israel to the standards we hold for terrorists. Because we don’t have any standards for terrorists. Additionally Israel’s capability for killing far exceeds what Hamad can achieve.
All the deaths due to the recent Hamas attack is the best Hamas can do. How many people could Israel kill, probably all 2 million in the Gaza strip.
Extremist Christians and extremist Zionists have wanted this for a long time. Only tempered by the west’s intolerance for mass killing. Since the Hamas attack the US and UK have both morally approved of moving into to Gaza.
The propaganda completely ignores this part and reframes this information as if more than 3,000 young and innocent children were slain.
The only thing that’s really propaganda here is your comment. A child conscripted to fight in a war is still a child, and no amount of pretending otherwise by propagandists like yourself will change that fact.
The only thing that’s really propaganda here is your comment
How so?
A child conscripted to fight in a war is still a child
I agree, but I’ll copy what I answered the other comment about this exactly: It’s never ok, but unfortunately this is war and war is shit. An ak47 in the hands of a 12 years old can kill just as well as one in the hands of a 20 years old.
in the Philippines, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cambodia, many regions of Africa and essentially wherever there were children-soldiers, the ones that indoctrinated them, trained them and placed firearms in their hands were the ones who were blamed for their deaths.
You seem to hold Israel as the only one accountable for it.
You just don’t get to throw up your hands and say “thats war.” This is not normal and should in no way be normalized (as you seem to be attempting to do.)
edit: a word
Yet some people still claim Israel is the victim! When the truth is that Israel is a terrorist state.
Of course they are also the victim. Hamas slaughtered adults and children with no remorse. Now Israel is returning the favor.
Both sides are aggressors and victims.
If someone shoots your dog and then you go to their house and shoot their dog. Are you justified? Perhaps. But you are still shooting a dog. And that makes you a dog killer.
2 wrongs do not make a right. Never will.
The ol’ “you shot me in the foot so I burnt down your neighborhood and killed your entire extended family” defense. Unbeatable in the court of law.
I agree, except I think Israel is the one to both start and end this.
I burnt down your house and killed your family, but because you shot me in the foot, I’ll burn down your neighborhood and kill your entire extended family.
If you find it not complicated then you are either uneducated and not impartial
I hope for the former and that you will educate yourself (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict)
Well they are the victims of a terror attack by the Hamas and have a right to defend themselves also not by any means of course…this conflict has two participants who are equally involved in this conflict, your point of view seems quite one sided to me.
People see will see these numbers and still argue “they are showing restraint, if Israel was really evil they would just carpet bomb them all.” Like what the fuck is this then?
Ministries of Health in Gaza is Operated by Hamas, so it would not be outlandish to say these numbers are being inflated in order to push public opinion and international support
“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. However none of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
Historically they stand up to even Israels secondary verification. From the AP:
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.
This excuse of “how is it genocide if there are still Palestinians alive? huh?” is such bullshit. Yes, let’s wait for Israel to kill the very last Palestinian before we can bring out our memorials and cry over the genocide.
No one is launching the nukes, because, well…first that’s not how nuclear deterrence works, like, at all. And second, most of the people with nukes are in favor of and support Israel. You are so off base in your comprehension of global geopolitics.
no victims, right. https://lemmy.world/post/7539955
Obviously there are individual victims, but as a nation Israel is mostly responsible as those who have all the power.
Having power = the ones responsible?
They have no power in Gaza. They haven’t had any for the last 15 years. The ones in control of Gaza and its population id Hamas, and the ones who doesn’t take care of poor Palestinians is Hamas. And the ones who get foreign aid and uses it for rockets instead of infrastructure is Hamas.
Power != Responsibility. Life isn’t spiderman.
How? Out of all middle east states, Israel is the only one where human rights are a thing.
I am not saying everything Israel does is great (especially in East Jerusalem) but the attacker is Hamas. They are the aggressor and have to be removed for good. Just like all terrorists.
I think it’s naive to think you can eradicate Hamas. The Brits couldn’t eliminate the IRA in Northern Ireland, nor could the Soviets eliminate the mujahideen. The US and French failed with the Viet Kong. The US just gave up on the Taliban…
It’s shameful that Hamas terrorists intentionally use children as shields.
Shields implies that they would use them to block something. Their death means that they obviously weren’t effective in that. You can only use something as a shield if it stops the enemy from doing that thing. The fact that they were still murdered falls at the feet of Israel. You know, as the people that dropped the weapons on their heads.
No. Terrorist Hamas knew there would be a retaliation for their barbaric murderous attack and should have had all civilians in an area separate from themselves in preparation.
Yes. So when people take hostages or use human shields that’s because good guys don’t kill the hostages or shoot through them. The innocent lives matter. That’s how that works. If you act the same if they’re there or not it makes you just as bad. Maybe worse. Glad I could help you figure that out.
Ugh, that’s twisted logic, so all civilian casualties should be ultimately attributed to Hamas? None of them can be attributed to perhaps an indiscriminate aerial bombardment running for three weeks?
If the bombing was truly indiscriminate then you’d have a point. But a 3 week WW1 era artillery campaign would have fully leveled Gaza a few times over. In order to honestly believe that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza you must believe that their military, the IDF, is the single most incompetent fighting force to ever walk the planet.
If so then yes, attacking the powerful retards is Hamas’ fault and you can attribute the problems that result to them.
Alternatively if you accept that they are discriminatory in where they bomb, balancing civilian casualties vs. the value of the military targets they’d take out; then that question sort of answers itself.
If this alternative, then yes comingling your government and military infrastructure together to use civilians as human shields (a by the book war crime) makes the predictable civilian casualties that result the fault of Hamas.
So according to your logic, each one of the bombs was hitting a legitimate military target. Assuming that Hamas military wing is around 30K, and that Israel is dropping around 400 bombs every day for about 3 weeks, this means that they had hit 82.000 “military” targets over Gaza and the signal from their government is that this war would be very long and bloody war. So how many more “targeted” bombs need to be dropped to kill every one of Hamas? And is the human cost justified?
Have you ever been trapped somewhere and being a subject to heavy bombardment for weeks with no way to escape, no access to food, water, electricity or fuel? How would you feel if you are trapped with all of your family and would you consider the actions of the aggressor as just?
What are the chances that you would start passionately hate this aggressor to deliberately putting you through this, especially if they hurt or kill some of your family members? And I want an honest answer!
Because I know what it would be, there isn’t a single human being that would be happy and not feel utterly miserable in this situation.
So now think is this like a good base for finding a long term peaceful solution where Jews and Arabs can live alongside each other without killing/hating themselves? What about all those kids who are currently going through all of this? Why they need to suffer, what’s their guilt?
You know if you are constantly beating your child, the chances of them turning into not a decent human being are quite high. But please stop being surprised that this is the case, and stop blaming everything on them. A bit of self reflection can do miracles.
The UN says that, according to anecdotal evidence, in the north of Gaza, air strikes appear to be systematically destroying residential areas.
Are those the only two possibilities? Is it possible they want plausible deniability while killing as many as they can? Israeli officials have made it clear that do not want Palestine to exist. The defense minister even called for a second Nakba, greater than the first, which was the original mass displacement of Palestinians.
Let me ask you two questions.
If Hamas is using the Palestinian people as shields and is forcefully preventing civilians from moving away from them, that makes the Palestinian people effectively hostages of Hamas. So if the Palestinian hostages happen to be near Hamas terrorists, are they acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
Eventually, Israel will find out where the Israeli hostages are being kept. Obviously, there will be Hamas terrorists near them. Are the Israeli hostages acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
If you answered yes to one question, and no to the other, you should ask yourself why you put different value on the lives of innocent human beings. Is it what side of a fence they are born on? What nationality they happen to have? What religion they believe in? The color of their skin?
rationally, no collateral damage is acceptable. realistically, you just need saturation bombing to answer the question.
You say “answer the question”, as in the ‘Palestinian Question’? Just admit you are advocating for a genocide, a wholesale slaughter of a people based on their nation.
are they acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
What’s the alternative? Let the other 2.4 million in Gaza suffer under Hamas forever? Collateral damage doesn’t magically disappear just because you wish for it.
What, like holding them up to block missile strikes that are leveling neighborhoods?
Ministries of Health in Gaza is Hamas lead no? Would not be surprised to see the numbers in Gaza being inflated
“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. However none of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
Source? I was under the impression that Hamas was in charge of all Governance in the Gaza Strip
EDIT: Following the 2007 Hamas takeover of Gaza, a month-long doctors’ strike ensued due to political disputes. The new Gaza government, with Basem Naim as Health Minister, replaced Fatah-affiliated hospital directors and staff with Hamas loyalists. Jomaa Alsaqqa, a 20-year surgeon at al-Shifa Hospital, lost his job due to his Fatah support and faced arrests and assaults since the Hamas takeover. In response, Naim stated “the hospital managers weren’t fired for political reasons: they were fired because of managerial, financial, and moral corruption in the hospitals.” per wikipedia article here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Health_Ministry)
While there are political independent and non political members of the Gaza Health Ministry it is still under the direction of Hamas itself.
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. None of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
From literally 8 comments down, don’t want you to have to break your scroll wheel.
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.
Israel is the terrorist.
Hamas are the terrorists preventing citizens from fleeing and using them as shields. They are at fault. Israel is not targeting civilians they are targeting Hamas outposts which Hamas purposefully puts in civilian zones hoping for protection.
Hamas literally wants to wipe all Jewish people from existence and started to do so. So far every one of the stories of what Hamas did to the Jewish folks has turned out to be true. Most of the Hamas ones have turned out to be bs.
Let’s be clear. Jews haven’t lived in Gaza since 2005. Gaza was given millions and millions of dollars in aid and supplies since. Instead of building a flourishing society, they built tunnels, bombs, and shoot rockets daily at Israel trying to kill Jews even though they don’t live in Gaza. There are no “colonizing settlers” for nearly 2 decades.
Enough is enough. Peace is not an option here it’s just a blanket that the bad guys use (and break the treaties for) all the time just to get a reprieve when sht gets real.
Oh cut the crap
Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is a terrorist state. Both are and have been fucking awful since their inception.
Let’s go with that. Even though it’s twisted logic.
If Israel is a terrorist state that still means that Hamas is going after non government officials and it is still wrong. Unless you buy into the logic that the citizens of Israel are guilty as well as they should have done something to stop the so called terrorist state actions. Sure. Let’s go with that. By that logic, so are the citizens of Gaza and thus nothing is fucked up as they are all guilty.
Or the more likely, the guys shooting rockets daily made out of supplies from foreign aid money and keeping basic supplies from their citizens are actually bad guys and terrible people and their propaganda is bullshit.
It all falls apart when you look at the differences. Israel even if it’s selfish government reasons to do it have been taking care to protect it’s citizens where it can. Hamas however has rejected multiple peace attempts, broken the cease fires nearly every time, and keeps supplies from their citizens then goes on the internet posting about how their hospitals have no fuel when they have a huge stockpile.
Even if they are oppressed and colonized people who are only being freedom fighters (they aren’t). Under zero context there’s no reason to side with them other than some narrow sense of virtue signalling .
If they were going full Arab spring and trying to regain their freedom maybe, but they are literally out there in the streets spitting on the corpses of women. Everywhere. And I’m sure some Israeli would do the same because they are fucked up too. But not at this scale.
Netanyahu quoted from First Samuel 15:3, saying, “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. ‘Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys’” The invocation of this biblical passage serves not only as a historical reference but also as a genocidal lens through which the Prime Minister views the current conflict.
Who is saying they literally want to wipe who off the earth again?
Where is the IDF headquarters located? How many civilians are they hiding behind??
