Since October 7, more than 3,257 children have been reported killed, including at least 3,195 in Gaza, 33 in the West Bank, and 29 in Israel, according to the Ministries of Health in Gaza and Israel respectively. The number of children reported killed in just three weeks in Gaza is more than the number killed in armed conflict globally – across more than 20 countries – over the course of a whole year, for the last three years.
Yet some people still claim Israel is the victim! When the truth is that Israel is a terrorist state.
The ol’ “you shot me in the foot so I burnt down your neighborhood and killed your entire extended family” defense. Unbeatable in the court of law.
I agree, except I think Israel is the one to both start and end this.
I burnt down your house and killed your family, but because you shot me in the foot, I’ll burn down your neighborhood and kill your entire extended family.
Of course they are also the victim. Hamas slaughtered adults and children with no remorse. Now Israel is returning the favor.
Both sides are aggressors and victims.
If someone shoots your dog and then you go to their house and shoot their dog. Are you justified? Perhaps. But you are still shooting a dog. And that makes you a dog killer.
2 wrongs do not make a right. Never will.
People see will see these numbers and still argue “they are showing restraint, if Israel was really evil they would just carpet bomb them all.” Like what the fuck is this then?
This excuse of “how is it genocide if there are still Palestinians alive? huh?” is such bullshit. Yes, let’s wait for Israel to kill the very last Palestinian before we can bring out our memorials and cry over the genocide.
Ministries of Health in Gaza is Operated by Hamas, so it would not be outlandish to say these numbers are being inflated in order to push public opinion and international support
“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. However none of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
Historically they stand up to even Israels secondary verification. From the AP:
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.
Well they are the victims of a terror attack by the Hamas and have a right to defend themselves also not by any means of course…this conflict has two participants who are equally involved in this conflict, your point of view seems quite one sided to me.
no victims, right. https://lemmy.world/post/7539955
Obviously there are individual victims, but as a nation Israel is mostly responsible as those who have all the power.
Having power = the ones responsible?
They have no power in Gaza. They haven’t had any for the last 15 years. The ones in control of Gaza and its population id Hamas, and the ones who doesn’t take care of poor Palestinians is Hamas. And the ones who get foreign aid and uses it for rockets instead of infrastructure is Hamas.
Power != Responsibility. Life isn’t spiderman.
No one is launching the nukes, because, well…first that’s not how nuclear deterrence works, like, at all. And second, most of the people with nukes are in favor of and support Israel. You are so off base in your comprehension of global geopolitics.
If you find it not complicated then you are either uneducated and not impartial
I hope for the former and that you will educate yourself (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict)
How? Out of all middle east states, Israel is the only one where human rights are a thing.
I am not saying everything Israel does is great (especially in East Jerusalem) but the attacker is Hamas. They are the aggressor and have to be removed for good. Just like all terrorists.
I think it’s naive to think you can eradicate Hamas. The Brits couldn’t eliminate the IRA in Northern Ireland, nor could the Soviets eliminate the mujahideen. The US and French failed with the Viet Kong. The US just gave up on the Taliban…
It’s shameful that Hamas terrorists intentionally use children as shields.
Shields implies that they would use them to block something. Their death means that they obviously weren’t effective in that. You can only use something as a shield if it stops the enemy from doing that thing. The fact that they were still murdered falls at the feet of Israel. You know, as the people that dropped the weapons on their heads.
No. Terrorist Hamas knew there would be a retaliation for their barbaric murderous attack and should have had all civilians in an area separate from themselves in preparation.
Yes. So when people take hostages or use human shields that’s because good guys don’t kill the hostages or shoot through them. The innocent lives matter. That’s how that works. If you act the same if they’re there or not it makes you just as bad. Maybe worse. Glad I could help you figure that out.
What, like holding them up to block missile strikes that are leveling neighborhoods?
Let me ask you two questions.
If Hamas is using the Palestinian people as shields and is forcefully preventing civilians from moving away from them, that makes the Palestinian people effectively hostages of Hamas. So if the Palestinian hostages happen to be near Hamas terrorists, are they acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
Eventually, Israel will find out where the Israeli hostages are being kept. Obviously, there will be Hamas terrorists near them. Are the Israeli hostages acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
If you answered yes to one question, and no to the other, you should ask yourself why you put different value on the lives of innocent human beings. Is it what side of a fence they are born on? What nationality they happen to have? What religion they believe in? The color of their skin?
rationally, no collateral damage is acceptable. realistically, you just need saturation bombing to answer the question.
You say “answer the question”, as in the ‘Palestinian Question’? Just admit you are advocating for a genocide, a wholesale slaughter of a people based on their nation.
are they acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
What’s the alternative? Let the other 2.4 million in Gaza suffer under Hamas forever? Collateral damage doesn’t magically disappear just because you wish for it.
Ugh, that’s twisted logic, so all civilian casualties should be ultimately attributed to Hamas? None of them can be attributed to perhaps an indiscriminate aerial bombardment running for three weeks?
If the bombing was truly indiscriminate then you’d have a point. But a 3 week WW1 era artillery campaign would have fully leveled Gaza a few times over. In order to honestly believe that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza you must believe that their military, the IDF, is the single most incompetent fighting force to ever walk the planet.
If so then yes, attacking the powerful retards is Hamas’ fault and you can attribute the problems that result to them.
Alternatively if you accept that they are discriminatory in where they bomb, balancing civilian casualties vs. the value of the military targets they’d take out; then that question sort of answers itself.
If this alternative, then yes comingling your government and military infrastructure together to use civilians as human shields (a by the book war crime) makes the predictable civilian casualties that result the fault of Hamas.
Are those the only two possibilities? Is it possible they want plausible deniability while killing as many as they can? Israeli officials have made it clear that do not want Palestine to exist. The defense minister even called for a second Nakba, greater than the first, which was the original mass displacement of Palestinians.
So according to your logic, each one of the bombs was hitting a legitimate military target. Assuming that Hamas military wing is around 30K, and that Israel is dropping around 400 bombs every day for about 3 weeks, this means that they had hit 82.000 “military” targets over Gaza and the signal from their government is that this war would be very long and bloody war. So how many more “targeted” bombs need to be dropped to kill every one of Hamas? And is the human cost justified?
Have you ever been trapped somewhere and being a subject to heavy bombardment for weeks with no way to escape, no access to food, water, electricity or fuel? How would you feel if you are trapped with all of your family and would you consider the actions of the aggressor as just?
What are the chances that you would start passionately hate this aggressor to deliberately putting you through this, especially if they hurt or kill some of your family members? And I want an honest answer!
Because I know what it would be, there isn’t a single human being that would be happy and not feel utterly miserable in this situation.
So now think is this like a good base for finding a long term peaceful solution where Jews and Arabs can live alongside each other without killing/hating themselves? What about all those kids who are currently going through all of this? Why they need to suffer, what’s their guilt?
You know if you are constantly beating your child, the chances of them turning into not a decent human being are quite high. But please stop being surprised that this is the case, and stop blaming everything on them. A bit of self reflection can do miracles.
The UN says that, according to anecdotal evidence, in the north of Gaza, air strikes appear to be systematically destroying residential areas.
Wow not a single mention of the infants and children being held hostage in Gaza. Apparently they only care about saving some of the children
Also shady that the number dead in Gaza comes from “The Ministry of Health in Gaza” aka Hamas controlled data.
No one.
They just don’t want to hear about it because it challenges their worldview. If this came from a source outside of Gaza, they’d criticize it for not being first hand information. And of course anything that comes from inside Gaza is hand waved as Hamas controlled. They’ve created a system that allows them to selectively write off any source that challenges them with the wave of a hand.
Maybe ALLOW other people in? It’s almost like Israel has closed all borders and is actively killing journalists, oh wait, blackout etc… Oh wait, they DID?
Until they do, you have no other option than to believe them. Why not? Because it serves you to think that way and push people online to automatically dismiss and disbelieve everything that’s happening right now.
I could also start making the case that I don’t believe Israel lost so 1400 people, just to annoy you. But I won’t, because they died and the least I can do is acknowledge that.
Dude if you’re triggered by them just ‘counting’ their dead, there’s something wrong with you.
Why should we trust a Ministry of Health in Gaza? Are they not a part of Hamas?
Edit: they even say later: “Save the Children is an independent, impartial organisation. With the ongoing complete siege of Gaza, journalists and international organisations are not able to get access to Gaza to verify independently and provide updated data on the impact of ongoing bombardment on the civilian population.”
Wouldn’t a good way to stop that be to stop the bombardment and let in people to take a full accurate tally? Israel would stop to do that if they cared about that number, and yet the bombs keep dropping.
I mean, that street goes 2 ways. Hamas could also release the hostages and surrender. That would also end the bombardment and let in people to take a tally.
Good point. Why are they bombing the place where the hostages are? That seems like they also don’t care about the hostages. Are the hostages Palestinian?
Quotes from the article-
“Yet the Gaza-based Ministry of Health — an agency in the Hamas-controlled government continues to tally casualty numbers….
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.
But an outlier is the ministry’s death toll from an explosion at al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza City last week.”
So while they have been trustworthy im the past, i still would prefer some third-party oversight after that hospital story. They threw their credibility and caught a bunch of news orgs with their pants down for trusting them.
Here, you forgot the rest of the quote
Yet the Gaza-based Ministry of Health — an agency in the Hamas-controlled government — continues to tally casualty numbers. It released its first detailed report on the casualties Thursday, giving names, ID numbers, ages and gender for Palestinians it says have been killed. The total toll is 7,028 Palestinians, including 2,913 minors, according to the ministry.
The ministry is the only official source for Gaza casualties. Israel has sealed Gaza’s borders, barring foreign journalists and humanitarian workers. The AP is among a small number of international news organizations with teams in Gaza. While those journalists cannot do a comprehensive count, they’ve viewed large numbers of bodies at the sites of airstrikes, morgues and funerals.
The AP wrote the article for anyone who cares to look. There’s genuinely a lot to learn about in there.
