cross-posted from: https://lemmit.online/post/1736886
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The original was posted on /r/simpsonsshitposting by /u/maninplainview on 2023-12-25 08:28:44.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve always looked at punk (the music, not the ideology) as a thing that was, not is. Similar to classic rock. As in… there are no new classic rock bands. No one says, “hey. I’m forming a classic rock back and we’re writing all new material!”
Punk was The Ramones, The Dammed, The Sex Pistols. Black Flag, The Clash, Dead Kennedys, etc.
Just like how classic rock was Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, BOC, Rolling Stones, The Beatles, etc.
Again, many will probably disagree, but this is simply an opinion on the matter.
You’re getting downvoted to hell here, but you’re completely right. Punk was a cultural moment that was alive and relevant from the late 70s to early 80s, a kind of nihilistic tabula rasa that was codified into a “genre” after the fact. All of the original punk bands sounded different from each other, then from the early 80s onwards all new punk bands sounded the same. Bands like Green Day and Rancid were probably the last nail in the coffin.
The spirit of what punk was lives on here and there in other expressions, but is rarely labeled as “punk”. If a band calls themselves punk rock today, they’re either doing some kind of museological work or they’re working for someone trying to sell you leather jackets. (HC should probably be considered as a separate movement altogether.)
I appreciate the reply. And might I ask if you also find it ironic that in disagreeing with the “punk” label, I’m being hive-mind downvoted by those defending the ideology and nomenclature of a movement that would stand against such behavior?
It’s almost as if these kids don’t get it. Which kind of makes my point for me.
Yeah, nah. There was a doco series like 4yrs ago. Ended with Henry Rollins going “everyone sys punk’s dead. It’s not. It’s still out there. It’s playing for a warm beer for each band member at some club. It’s playing some kids basement show” and as much as I don’t always agree with the guy, he’s not wrong… Like, I could rattle off 5 new punk bands to me this year. Could do more if I sat down and went through what I listened to, but those 5 stood out over an onslaught of electronica, metal, indie, etc. If you think the youth of today isn’t just as disaffected as the youth of the 70s, I have a bridge to sell you…
If you think the youth of today isn’t just as disaffected as the youth of the 70s, I have a bridge to sell you…
No one is saying that, they’re probably a lot more disaffected as a whole. That’s not to say they as a group are turning to a 45+ year old subculture to alleviate their disaffection. I could rattle off a few new dixieland acts as well, that doesn’t mean dixieland is currently a living, vibrant art form. There’s always going to be reenactors and there’s nothing wrong with that per se.
I’m 51 years old, you clown. I remember these bands when most of them were still touring- and was at a Pink Floyd show as a child back in 81’. I have MANY first edition vinyls from a lot of them as well.
The fact that you came out missing so hard on such a big swing- shows how much you’ve yet to learn about talking to people you know nothing about.
My mistake. Should have realized who posts here and known better. This isn’t a place to share opinions.
My dude are you mad because you shared your opinion and people were like “nah man that doesn’t make sense”? So like you can share your opinion but don’t want anyone to respond with theirs?
Sounds like you’re not looking for a forum. You’re looking for a diary.
I mean, you can have whatever opinion you want but this one in particular isn’t very helpful. Lots of new bands call themselves or are called punk.
https://bandcamp.com/discover/punk
Are you going to tell them they’re doing it wrong?
You could make an argument that there is “classic punk” like “classic rock”, and maybe people would know what you meant, but that’s not really the language as it is spoken today.
Did you actually listen to any of the bands from the bandcamp link? A lot of them could not be called punk by any stretch of the imagination, but more genre tags mean a higher chance for listens.
Some extra confusion comes from the fact that “punk” doubles as the name of a movement (or perhaps an attitude) and any style of vaguely ramones-derived music. Most of the time, it’s used as no more than a nice buzzword that simply means “attitude” in a very vague sense. To exemplify, “Noone is as punk as Celine Dion!” is a sentence that both makes perfect sense (you understand what is meant) and is complete nonsense at the same time. The words “dubstep” or “zydeco” cannot be used in the same way.
Are you going to tell them they’re doing it wrong?
To be clear, is your argument that the term “punk” is completely devoid of meaning and if someone calls their music punk, it must be? That’s really not helpful at all.
My argument is there are contemporary bands that call themselves punk and are called punk by others. There are subgenres like pop punk to further clarify. One could be a cliché pedant and say like “pop punk isn’t punk” but that was an eyeroller when 30 years ago when the argument was new.
You said “a lot of them” on the search link can’t be called punk. But then some of them presumably can be. So then new punk bands exist.
Calling one’s self a punk band doesn’t make it a punk band. And again, find me a band on bandcamp that describes themselves as a classic rock back writing new material.
Why do you accept “classic rock” exists alongside “rock” but not “classic punk” alongside “punk”?
Also here’s crobot. They’re tagged as classic rock: https://crobot.bandcamp.com/album/feel-this .They do a great live show
I sense “no true Scotsman” coming, though.
You need to look in the right places. First off check out the band soft play from the UK. They’re definitely a good larger example of modern punk. Apart from that, any city with a proper local music scene is going to have a few punk bands. Austin and Chicago come to mind.
Yeah, and new bands get added every year as time marches on. Your initial comment is insane though. Country, metal, electronica, they all continue on, but punk has died…? That’s not how music works at all. Punk is still happening every day. From the classics you mentioned, to some shitty band who only formed last week and are still thrashing out their first song in their parents garage, it’s all out there. Plenty of ways to find it too. Speciality punk record labels and record stores, punk venues, plenty of playlists to be found.
Only if you want to start circumcising mosquitos here.
Classical as a word typically refers to the period of time the Greeks were at their height.
Classical Rock uses the spirit of the word Classical to describe this era of rock and roll as the basis for modern Rock and Roll.
Now if you want to use the term classical rock to describe an era, then no that era is gone. If you want to decide that only the period of the 70s and early 80s that punk was as you describe it then SURE punk is dead.
But punk started before the 70s and will continue long after you and I are dead.
By the arbitrary definition that punk was a genre of rock music that existed only during a certain time period… sure it was and no longer is.
I simply champion the idea that labeling punk as a genre is ironic in and of itself, to say it fits in a narrow definition is also kinda ironic.
Yes, but they won’t release new music, because then it wouldn’t be classic anymore.
I’m not really sure what part of your comment was an opinion, but “people don’t start punk bands anymore” is simply not true. There’s plenty of new punk acts out there, the genre didn’t just come to an abrupt halt in 1990. Just off the top of my head is IDLES and The Chats, but you can find tons of recent bands if you look.
No one says, “hey. I’m forming a classic rock back and we’re writing all new material!”
Sure, but I bet a lot of young talent are saying “hey we’re forming a rock band and that girl/guy in the corner over there writes kickass lyrics.”
After that they either fail and few ever hear them play, or they succeed and a new band is born. Maybe they even eventually end up becoming legends of their own. It doesn’t happen often, but it does happen.
Now rock and punk isn’t my jam so much, because I like mellow electronic stuff, but I know of one such band that I found when COVID hit and they’re just now beginning to really break through. It’s fucking beautiful when a band finds that essence that truly defines them.
There’s very much still new punk, but it’s old enough that what you described probably should be thought of as classic punk. It’s evolved, grown, changed, and split. You’ve got plenty of bands still screaming similar to the old school stuff, but you’ve also got stuff like against me, rage against the machine (yeah it’s rap punk), and my mind is blanking on other modern well known punk bands, but then you’ve got punk descended genres that are still punk like folk punk and riot grrl as well as genres like goth and emo
I think it’s better compared to metal. It’s an offshoot of rock that branched, evolved, and stuck around with a certain type of people
I mean, it’s possible to like bands but not buy into their ideologies. I love Propagandhi but don’t agree with all of their positions. Pretending that they don’t have those positions so you never have to interrogate your own positions is the essence of being a poser though.
It’s called cognitive dissonance, when a person holds two conflicting ideas or beliefs. It’s stressful to acknowledge the conflict and change beliefs and behaviours, so people instead do mental gymnastics to justify holding both.
I mean, it’s possible to like bands but not buy into their ideologies.
I would think that’s pretty rare, except from people who absolutely do not pay attention to the lyrics or do not know how to interpret their meaning.
I love classical music, but am not very religious. I’m guessing this situation, at least, is somewhat common.
I hope not. I really enjoy immersing myself in political spheres I don’t necessarily agree with just to see what makes them tick, it’s really interesting to me and humanizes people I might otherwise hate as a matter of principle. Music turns out to be a really easy way to do this.
I can’t imagine I’m the only one, though it’s definitely not something I often see online.
Propagandhi is actually a good example of a band that has some stances that you may not adhere to, but still find enjoyment in the spirit of the lyrics.
I can wave the black and red flag with them, while still eating meat and not liking hockey.
I never really considered veganism a political view… But I do like Morrissey, even though I also like meat. However, I’m not really into Meat is Murder specifically. I don’t agree with the lyrics and it’s not that great musically either 🤷🏻♂️
However, veganism isn’t really a harmful ideology, either. I can disagree with them and still respect them. It’s much harder (for me, impossible) to respect a white supremacist or other harmful/hateful groups. I have heard plenty of country songs that definitely have that kind of views embedded in it. Fuck those bands.
True, but if politics are deeply baked into a genre it is part of the genre. Post 9/11 country is pretty right wing, I accept that, if I’m listening to it I accept I’ll get right wing content unless I seek out left wing country. Similarly if I’m listening to Appalachian folk music of the early-mid 20th Century It’s gonna be communist as all hell. It was a genre defined in part by its association with a location and time and the politics within it, namely being extremely pro unionization.
Punk is similar but it broke containment. Punk is deeply tied to anarchism and antifascism. There are punk musicians, including famous and foundational ones who aren’t, like the Sex Pistols, but the by the time the genre had solidified anarchism ran in its veins. If I go to a random punk show I expect far left, anti bigotry, anti authoritarian themes in the same way I expect themes of romance and desire at a pop show. It isn’t necessary to keep and it certainly doesn’t need to be in every song, but it’s expected and it’s inversion will be something notable.
any mid century appelachian folk recs? im staunchly pro union, sounds like my jam
People who say “keep politics out of” anything are usually stupid. Most things are political. Implicitly supporting the status quo is political. Leaving things unsaid is political.
Usually the people who pop out that line mean “keep politics that are different than mine out of”.
But on topic, punk is extremely political. For example, please review these lyrics from The Clash “Know Your Rights”, 1982
You have the right not to be killed
Murder Is a crime!
Unless it was done
By a policeman or an aristocrat
Care to name some media that’s about people that has no political dimension?
For example, if a story has only white people or a story has non-white people, that’s a political dimension to the story. “Political” doesn’t only mean waving a flag.
A story about rescuing a princess from a castle has a political dimension. Super Mario Brothers isn’t what most people think of as a “political” game, but that’s there. It’s saying monarchy is okay, and unremarkably so as it doesn’t really spend any time on it. That’s not even touching the gender role stuff.
A story about a boy pursuing a girl is rife with political subtext. Why is he pursuing instead of her? Why not an arranged marriage? Why not gay? When does No mean No? All of that stuff is there, whether you like it or not. It might not be noticeable if it’s the dominant paradigm, but it’s still there.
Someone might say “Well you’re just reading into things!”. Unfortunately for them, that’s like the entirety of literary analysis. Additionally, the author’s intent is one tiny sliver of what’s important, if it matters at all.
Finding a political dimension in, like, lyric-less chiptune music might be more challenging, but most stuff that involves people has a political aspect to it.
Politics (from Ancient Greek πολιτικά (politiká) ‘affairs of the cities’) is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations among individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status.
That covers literally anything involving a group of people doing things.
On one hand there probably are a lot of non political things. On the other hand, once you’ve been involved exclusively into non political things for long enough you may find yourself in a very bad situation politically. Like being governed by arseholes that don’t give a damn about you or human rights but everyone thinks that they somehow represent you
Usually the people who pop out that line mean “keep politics that are different than mine out of”.
Really depends imo. A lot of political discourse naturally falls onto the same tracks towards the same repeated talking points, automatically making the worst assumptions about what people mean, being very defensive and suspicious (or even straight hateful) of anyone not proactively signalling being part of the same group. It’s important to face it and deal with it but you may want to take muddy boots off before you come in the house.
Punk is (was) almost nothing BUT politics.
Being factual. Call it wooshy if you like. Doesn’t bother me.
I love playing whoosh a lot anyway for comedy porpoises.
The funny thing about art is that people can interpret it however they want, even in the most stupid ways. See the many idiots that thought/think Rage Against the Machine and Pink Floyd weren’t political.
