A US appeals court Saturday paved the way for a California law banning the concealed carry of firearms in “sensitive places” to go into effect January 1, despite a federal judge’s ruling that it is “repugnant to the Second Amendment.”
The law – Senate Bill 2 – had been blocked last week by an injunction from District Judge Cormac Carney, but a three-judge panel filed an order Saturday temporarily blocking that injunction, clearing the path for the law to take effect.
The court issued an administrative stay, meaning the appeals judges did not consider the merits of the case, but delayed the judge’s order to give the court more time to consider the arguments of both sides. “In granting an administrative stay, we do not intend to constrain the merits panel’s consideration of the merits of these appeals in any way,” the judges wrote.
I’m sure gun people will be pissed at me for this, but wanting to have a concealed gun on you doesn’t really make much sense to me if guns are supposed to be a deterrent. You aren’t deterring anyone with your gun if no one knows you have it. Shouldn’t you want to wear it where everyone can see it so they know not to try anything funny?
I don’t think guns are supposed to be a deterrent. Someone running to mug you isn’t thinking clearly about the possible complications or repercussions.
A carried gun is a commitment to kill someone before you are killed in a life or death situation. Not too feel cool or show off, or brandish as a warning.
Plus if you dress like a cowboy, someone might try to mug you FOR that gun, making you a bigger target.
That’s all pretty heavy, and the odds are low that you’d encounter that situation. So not a lot of people are willing to complicate their lives for it.
A carried gun is a commitment to kill someone before you are killed in a life or death situation. Not too feel cool or show off, or brandish as a warning.
In what world are you living in where someone comes up to you with a gun, in an attempt to kill you and you have time to remove your gun from wherever you’re concealing it, remove the safety and aim it before the person trying to kill you can kill you?
It certainly happens.
Just last week I saw a video where a man ran up with a gun to start a robbery. A woman whipped a handgun out of her purse and shot him.
The idea that personal firearms can’t be used for self defense is a silly argument.
Earth. This happens frequently on Earth. Perhaps it may shock you to find this out, but most criminals and thieves are not trained with firearms, and are not very good at shooting. Unless they’re already aiming at you and intent on murdering you, instead of just robbing you, or scaring you, they’re probably going to miss the first shot or two.
In what world are you living where protecting yourself and your family is not important?
The deterrent is the uncertainty of who may and may not have a gun on them. A lot of self defense is making yourself a harder target, the knowledge that a firearm might come into play and the victim may be proficient at using it makes anyone and everyone a harder target. It doesn’t mean desperate criminals won’t still make a move, but it should decrease the number of crimes attempted.
Again, it is already uncertain who may and may not have a gun on them.
but it should decrease the number of crimes attempted.
Is there any data to that effect or is that just wishful thinking?
There’s not good data on anything related to guns and it’s frustrating.
Intuitively it makes sense that if there might be a bear in the woods some people aren’t going to go into the woods because they’re afraid of getting mauled by a bear. It almost certainly has an effect, but quantifying it is going to be hard and subject to bias and the real effect will always be subject to other unrecorded factors (e.g. maybe when they tested one group the bears were hibernating).
I personally don’t think many people who aren’t into gun culture or traumatized by guns give much thought to whether or not someone is going to have a gun in XYZ place … which probably translates to a lot of crimes of passion or desperation (e.g. I need drug money so I’m going to go rob this gas station).
By saying it’s already uncertain, you’ve immediately made an assumption. Congratulations, you’re just as biased as the rest of us. Nothing you said so far has been supported by evidence.
I’d say the crime rates in no carry zones vs like… Red bits of Texas would be an indicator. No idea what those are but the number of stories out of Texas like “robber shot by 3 different people during hold-up”… Yeh.
It’s assumed that no one is armed in California because of all the unjust laws here. No thief is going to hesitate thinking “what if my target has a gun…”
The deterrent is supposed to be the possibility of armed people. The idea is supposed to be that allowing people to legally carry concealed weapons means that any potential victim might have a gun.
On the other hand, many gun owners who support concealed carry oppose open carry for several reasons.
First off, they don’t want to make them or their gun a target. They don’t want someone trying to steal their gun, and they don’t want to flag themselves as the first target for any kind of attack.
But another huge reason is that they feel like the only reason to carry openly in public is to make a political statement and carry around an implied threat. Most people who carry concealed consider themselves pretty normal people and they aren’t interested in making statements or threatening others. They just carry a gun.
I’ll occasionally carry my target postil concealed just to keep the gun secure while transporting it. It’s usually in a safe at the house, but when I’m going to the range or leaving town I’ll take it with me, and it’s less-likely to get stolen off my hip than it is by having my car window smashed. Keeping it hidden on my person is just another part of firearm safety.
I know you’re getting blasted with replies. It’s not supposed to be a deterrent. You carry concealed so that you can defend your life with deadly force without having to walk around pretending to be a badass all the time. Carrying a gun doesn’t stop crime, it stops people when they make an attempt on your life.
Carrying a gun doesn’t stop crime, it stops people when they make an attempt on your life.
It can cause an attempt on your life if an assailant gets it. Or if you feel suicidal. The most dangerous gun is the one you own. The safest thing is to buy a gun and mail it to Alaska.
I also agree. If you own a gun, the person you’re most likely to shoot with it is yourself (statistically speaking). After yourself, it’s loved ones. A gun is a massive responsibility and you need to take that seriously in order to not fall victim to the patterns that create those statistics.
I totally agree! If there was a tool I could carry around that made me invulnerable I’d carry that instead. A “proper” person who has decided to carry a gun should also be carrying pepper spray and a med kit. You can argue about the utility of a taser, but they’re very uncommon for people to carry. They should also have significant practice with any tool they decide to carry. Oh, and they should practice de-escalating and disengaging from various “bad” situations. The priority should be to do everything you can to avoid using your gun. If you are forced to use it, that’s a bad, rare, and regrettable situation, and you had really better be able to tell yourself you did everything right.
How fragile and distrusting of other people does someone have to be to feel the urge to carry a gun around on their person at all times? Granted America can be a bit (lol) dystopian but to warrant a gun on your hip to go to Trader Joe’s? That’s some scared person behaviour. For a nation that wants to come across as being the confident cowboy there really is a scared child behind it all.
I think there are quite a few scared people carrying guns around in the US, and that’s very unfortunate. In fact, if you’re carrying because you’re afraid, you should reevaluate your situation. It’s just another tool you can carry around, one that you’re very, very unlikely to need.
Everyone I know that carries does so concealed. They don’t care about deterrents or whatever, they’re just taking a precaution they hope to never use. Like being mugged or attacked. Source: Texas.
You have far more confidence in people than I do. Hoping to never use it (except perhaps in that drunk fight with my neighbour)? I wouldn’t trust anyone who carries guns on the extremely remote probability that it will help them in a shooting/robbery.
Wouldn’t you be less likely to be mugged or attacked if the potential mugger or attacker saw you had a gun? This is sort of what I’m saying…
IMO, a lot of people see the open carrying types to just be people cosplaying badasses. The type that has spent basically 0 time training to use it, outside maybe taking it to a range and firing off a hundred rounds. They see it as a gun to be stolen?
The only time I see open carry that seems to make sense in all of this is shop workers/cashier. I’ve been in stores that have a reputation based on what they sell to get hit by robbers, and the guy working is carrying outside his belt. Like a smoke shop or liquor store for example.
There’s two main reasons. For one, people get uncomfortable around someone open carrying in public, so it’s more polite to have it concealed. A common mentality is that people who OC (open carry), do so for the attention, not protection.
And the second reason is that if someone was planning on starting something, openly carrying a gun could make you the first target, either for attack or for theft of your gun.
You’re more likely to be targeted first in an attack if you have a visible weapon. Similar to how bank robbers will shoot the guards first if the guards have guns. If you have your weapon concealed you may be able to shoot the attacker before he is aware you have a weapon.
No, you’re more likely to be the first target and have someone attempt to disarm you. No one should know you have a concealed weapon unless they’re trying to kill you. Open carry is idiotic. Showing a gun if you’re not in fear for your life to the point where you’d shoot is brandishing, and it’s a felony.
I carry daily. The only person in real life who even knows I own a gun is my father.
Then guns are definitely not a deterrent.
There is no such thing as a deterrent that deters people who don’t know about its existence, and if you’re a target by openly carrying the thing you call a deterrent, that doesn’t deter people either.
So maybe the argument that guns are a deterrent should be dropped by the people who want to carry their gun concealed about their person.
Well, I believe the idea is that if you are wanting to start something and you know people are definitely carrying, but you don’t know who or how many is the deterrent.
I am not here to convince you.
If a person with a gun decides they’re going to start shooting, are they going to shoot the other person with a gun first, or last?
A law like this doesn’t stop criminals so much as it let’s them not worry about being shot at. It doesn’t stop a criminal from having a gun. It stops everyone else from having a gun.
Explain to me how it makes a park safer to not allow concealed weapons in it. I’ll listen to your reasoning. No big wall of text with 50 reasons that would take ages to go over. Just explain to me how a law that stops a law abiding citizen from having a concealed weapon in a park will make it safer.
LOL, “I’m willing to listen to reasoning, but only if you format it in a way that I’m willing to read.”
For real, though, fewer guns means fewer gun crimes. The whole ‘then only outlaws will have guns’ is really a myth. Statistics have shown over and over again that the vast majority of criminals who purchase guns do so legally. If they can’t purchase one locally, they just go a state over where the laws are lax. The whole ‘black market’ gun stores thing is just a false argument.
The idea that a ‘good guy with a gun’ will make everyone safer is also pretty well debunked. Just look at John Hurley - the ‘good guy with a gun’ who was posthumously branded a hero after he was shot by the police.
Guns are inherently unsafe. We’re never getting rid of them in military applications, but any reasonable restrictions for private ownership should be a no-brainer.
All the arguments for ‘private gun ownership makes us safer’ fall apart under any scrutiny. So does the constitutional argument. The only real, provable argument you have is that your personal freedom to own a killing machine is more important to you than public safety.
I wouldn’t argue against all of what you said, but that isn’t this law. It’s not fewer guns, or gun purchase restrictions, or legally owned guns or any of that. This is just a law that bans concealed carry at a few added places. Police can’t search a person without cause. These aren’t security restricted places places where you get checked for weapons before entering. There’s literally no hindrance to go into a park with a concealed firearm aside from “its against the law”. How will this stop the criminal sort from having or using a gun? Do you think a person robbing someone at gunpoint will be like “woah, I can’t rob them with this in the park. That’s extra illegal now”? Or that the criminal sort will stop going to a park with a gun, even though they wouldn’t be able to get caught with it if they leave it concealed and don’t do anything that would cause a cop to be allowed to detain and search them? The law passed doesn’t really do much to make these places safer.
Shooting a weapon is always a risk. Not allowing weapons takes that risk away.
A concealed gun isn’t going to do shit when the mugger is already holding you at gunpoint.
I’ve never understood why you’d want a gun. The risks of guns being everywhere just seems a lot more obvious than the rare situations where they’d actually be useful.
Guns are far more likely to be used for bad than good, that’s why you want as little as possible guns around…
That’s simply untrue. On several different occasions I’ve avoided getting mugged/carjacked/robbed because I saw someone who looked like they were coming my way with intent and their hand in their pocket or just starting to draw it out, so I pulled out my own and in each case they turned around and walked away, presumably to find an easier target. Same with the multiple times armed junkies broke into my house - they see my gun, and they run rather than proceeding to do whatever the fuck they were going to do. I am a cripple, so I’m not gonna be able to fight - it’s this or nothing. Not just me, but my wife and son as well.
Yes, guns are bad. Yes, less guns is good! Total agreement. Unfortunately, life is not so black and white. In the US we have SO MANY GUNS, and so many available illegally, and cheaply, that any of these gun laws are only stopping law abiding citizens like myself from having a tool to defend ourselves with, as a criminal is going to be carrying wether it’s legal or not for him to as it’s readily available.
Australia and the UK, shit even Canada, are so different in this respect (guns per capita and availability and cheapness of black market guns specifically) that you really can’t compare policy - what works there isn’t necessarily going to work here.
So what’s the answer, you say? Lots of things!
We have a lot of gun laws on the books in regards to background checks/greymarket/gunshow sales/etc that are simply not enforced, or not enforced well. Enforce them! Make the checks more strict, stop letting folks with mental issues buy guns, etc.
Want a gun? You should have to take a mandatory safety course for that specific type of gun (shotgun, revolver, semi auto pistol, etc - just like classes on your drivers license). You should have to pass a test and renew it regularly, similar to CCW permits on most states. Let’s make it so that if you ARE a law abiding citizen carrying a gun, you know how to safely use the kind of gun you carry, can shoot reasonably accurately with it, have been taught your local self defense laws, have been taught trigger discipline, and have been taught how to check your fucking backdrop before you pull the trigger so you don’t put other innocents at risk when defending yourself.
Do something to limit the number of new guns brought into the system. The ones we got are here, can’t really do much about that without people losing their collective shit. But we ought to be able to slow down the numbers of new ones made available to the public, via extra taxes, limits on how many guns a person can purchase in a time period, I don’t know really, this is a hard one, but I think it’s the way we need to do it so we don’t just fuck over the average citizen - gradually.
The law doesn’t actually do anything to remove guns from criminals. These areas aren’t secure to get into. There’s no controlled entrances or frisking or metal detectors. There’s nothing that prevents a criminal from having a concealed weapon there. So you think someone that would pull out and use a gun not in self defense is going to worry about our be deterred by having an extra charge of having the gun at the zoo?
If a person with a gun decides they’re going to start shooting, are they going to shoot the other person with a gun first, or last?
This is, once again, just a supposition. Is there any evidence anywhere of a mass shooter gong for an armed person first during a mass shooting?
Ignoring the logic that even an insane person going on a shooting spree would want to shoot the armed people first, exactly how many mass shooting events do you think there are in comparison to smaller event shootings?
I have the answer for you. While there may be a mass shooting 20 to 50 times a year, ruling out suicides and accidents there are about 210 people shot per day.
Aside from you wanting evidence of a completely obvious thing a mass shooter would do, you’re trying to compare something that happens in less than a single percent of all other shootings.
Furthermore, there are almost 12,000 robberies in the US each year using knives, over 200 by choking victims, and over 4,000 per year using blunt weapons like baseball bats. Now you can interpret or swing all those statistics whatever way you’d like, but it would stand to reason that having a visible gun on you would go two ways- either the person doesn’t attack you due to fear of the weapon, or they would beat/stab you without warning or threatening the victim so they couldn’t have a chance to pull their gun out. Having a concealed weapon would give you an option to take the attacker off guard if the situation arose.
if someone sees your gun, they can take it with a surprise rock to the head attack.
also if a decent percentage concealed carry, then crazy people will maybe consider that before doing crazy things?
(i don’t agree with that just playing devils advocate)
(i don’t agree with that just playing devils advocate)
Why? It’s unnecessary.
Lol showing you’re armed makes you a target. And someone will take it from your hip. There’s videos of people grabbing the gun and just running, so no. You’re absolutely wrong here. A lot of idiots are up voting you too, which is sad.
There’s videos of people grabbing the gun and just running
Finally a claim of some evidence.
Please show me one of these videos.
Are you being dense about this or just stupid all around? It’s not hard to Google.
Open carry makes you the main target - https://youtu.be/wPEaX4HwWyc?si=WT0yFXgsjf6dHICe
Stolen right off guy in checkout - https://youtube.com/shorts/T15ikZkbkbU?si=iN5RNc-7b1HqwCBs
There’s plenty more, those aren’t even the one I remember
Edit: found the one I remember specifically - https://youtube.com/shorts/GwtrTJvD5tc?si=f3WNVtA6-4p8tUPS
Anything else?
Story incoming…
When I was about 12 my family, a long with my uncle, went on a camping trip in Gorman California. The sun had just gone down and we had a fire and we’re listening to the radio. My mom was in the trailer with my other siblings and my dad, uncle and I were heating up hot dogs by the fire.
These 2 men walk up to our fire out of the dark and sit down and start being super belligerent and creepy. They have knives and who the hell else knows what. They demand beer and hotdogs. My dad, asks them to leave after giving them both a beer and dog. They don’t and keep getting more aggressive. They start talking about things like coming in to the trailer and what what else they can have.
My uncle starts to get brave and tell them to get the fuck out. They don’t like that and become more aggressive and get out their seats to hurt him. MY Dad tells them he has more to drink in the trailer. He walks into the trailer and walks back out with 2 hand guns and points them at they guys and tells them to get the fuck out or die. I’d like to say it felt heroic seeing him do this, but I was so freaking scared out of my mind. The men leave and you can hear their motorcycles start up and they drive away.
Earlier that day my uncle kept making fun of my dad for being his guns. And telling him he doesn’t need them. In the end, we absolutely did need them and it may have even saved our lives at most.
I don’t have a moral of the story here. Just a story. I don’t carry in public. I’m not even a huge gun guy. But I have one. And it goes with me camping.
Good story, thanks for sharing.
But the fact of the matter is that, in situations like this, guns are really only needed because everyone else could have guns. There’s a perpetual threat of gun violence. That’s what makes the US such an unsafe country for kids and adults alike. People in other developed countries don’t have to think this way when they go camping and I’m very jealous of that.
So they blocked the block blocking the Glock?
The 2nd amendment makes exactly zero references to a right to carry a concealed firearm. That instead has been read into that text by the fruitcake majority on the USSC.
Imagine, if you will, a law that restricted your right to free speech on any public property, or on any private property that didn’t affirmatively give you permission. Or religion. Or any other right. Sure, you have the right to free speech, but only in your own home, and not even online unless your ISP specifically says it’s okay, and not by phone unless the phone company gives permission. You okay with that? If not, why would you be okay with this?
