There’s this rising narrative going around that if you ask specifically for a CIS partner, you’re a transphobe. That could be true for some people but it’s not fundamentally related to bigotry. Moreover, this narrative, the “if you only want a CIS mate then that is prejudice” is trampling on one of the most important rights a person can have: the right to choose who they want to get intimate with.
First of all, transmen are in fact men and transwomen are in fact women. Let’s get that out of the way. This isn’t a foot in the door for “trans this really isn’t that” narratives. What this is about it is the freedom to choose who you want to be intimate with. That right is sancrosanct, it is absolutely inviolable.
And yes, there’s plenty of issues that make transgender dating a special issue. If someone reveals their TG status they can be open to hate crimes and even deadly violence. However all marginalized groups are special in their own way. As a black man I don’t think it’s racist if a woman says she doesn’t want to date a black man. I face oppression, too. My class is special in its own way. One group isn’t more special than the other. None of us have the right to force ourselves upon those who don’t want to be intimate with us, even by omitting who we really are.
Really, if you have to deceive or hide who you are in order to date someone, do you really want to date them? I wouldn’t. That’s not fair to you and you’re denying them their right to choose who they want. What do you think will happen when the person wants a CIS mate and they discover the truth? They’re going to get pissed and dump you. Now you have to shame them into staying with you: “If you loved me for real this wouldn’t bother you”… that’s not going to convince anyone. They’re either going to leave, or they’ll resent you forever. That’s just how it is. You can be mad at that but that’s about as effective as protesting the rising of the sun. There’s just no way to win once you’ve gone down that road.
“I want a CIS mate” is not the same as “trans women are not women” - one is a preference, the other is harmful prejudice. On the flip side CIS people who do date trans people shouldn’t be shamed for their choices either. A man should be free to date a trans woman and not catch flak about it. Trans people should be able to be openly trans and not face hate speech or threats to their well-being. This, without any exception whatsoever.
The fundamental fact is when you shame or worse abrogate people’s right to choose who they want to get intimate with, it’s not going to end well for you. All you’re going to get is people who resent being coerced or bullied to date people they don’t want to. And that’s not something the country, or the world, will ever put up with. Except that right now, most people don’t imagine they can be labeled a transphobe just for wanting a CIS mate. And unpopular opinion: that should be nipped in the bud.
I’m a transwoman and I agree with you on this. When I was dating, I was upfront and when a guy said it was a deal breaker, it saved both of us a lot of time.
Most guys I talked to said it was a dealbreaker, and yeah it sucks. It makes you feel “othered.” But I can’t expect anyone to go outside their sexual comfort zone for a rando on Tinder.
Most of the guys were very polite about it all, too. And that’s all you should need to do.
If someone’s shaming you about it, that’s a good sign they have something going on in their own life. Essentially it’s their problem, not yours.
Hope this helps~
Thank you for your response. I feel I must repeat in case it is ambiguous: I am absolutely against any form of trans shaming whatsoever. If you want to date a trans person, you should be 100% free to do so without negative social consequence.
Oh boy do I have a load of dumb questions, if you’ll humor me? For context, I’m a middle-aged, cis, white guy. Dated a lot the last few years, settled down and just married the finest woman I’ve ever known.
What does “transwoman” mean? LOL, I don’t even know how to approach this. For me, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it’s a duck, good enough. I’d date a transwoman that was, uh, “completely” a woman. Gods I hope you know what I mean.
OK, I’ll go with my wife, maybe clear it up. She’s a Filipina, unapologetically feminine. All else being the same, if she had been born with a penis, wouldn’t care. Among 100 other things, I so love her femininity.
Am I embarrassing myself? Sure feels like it. Never had any trans friends, or even known any trans folks. Anyhow, I hope you understand I’m on your side, all the way. (That’s not a cutesy slogan. I train, I carry, I mean it with all my heart. If it comes to it, no one is going on a train if I can help it.)
I think that you likely have met trans folks but were not aware. Hell, they may not have been aware. Relative to us cis people, they are a minority of human population, but trans people are everywhere. Keep rocking your allyship and make your acceptance of everyone for who they are clear, and you might find you have people around you that feel comfortable sharing. Also keep in mind that it can be physically very dangerous for them to share who they are.
Congratulations on being married!
A transwoman (my best interpretation) means someone born male who took hormones to become female, and maybe an operation to exchange a penis for a vagina. A transwoman is completely a woman, they were just not assigned female at birth.
All else being the same, if she had been born with a penis, wouldn’t care. Among 100 other things, I so love her femininity.
See, I support this freedom to choose who you want to be with.
Am I embarrassing myself? Sure feels like it. Never had any trans friends, or even known any trans folks. Anyhow, I hope you understand I’m on your side, all the way. (That’s not a cutesy slogan. I train, I carry, I mean it with all my heart. If it comes to it, no one is going on a train if I can help it.)
Well it’s not like half the populace is trans. They make up at most 3% of the overall population. There are whole regions of America where they don’t exist or are very much hiding who they are. You may have a trans friend and not even know it.
BTW do you have any connection to the John Brown gun club? I’m not close friends with their members but just wondering.
What does “transwoman” mean?
OP is spelling trans woman wrong. Trans is short for transgender. It’s Latin, it means the gender one identifies as is different from the one society assigned to them and expected them to turn out as.
I’d date a transwoman that was, uh, “completely” a woman
Some trans women aren’t completely women, in that they’re demigirls or another nonbinary identity. A demigirl is someone whose gender identity is only partially female. The rest can be something else, or it can be nothing. But I have a feeling you’re not talking about that, and you mean vaginas. It’s important to note that a vagina isn’t womanhood. Gender is mental, it’s a social construct. It’s not the same as anatomy. Some trans women have vaginas, thanks to surgery.
She’s a Filipina, unapologetically feminine.
I know lots of feminine trans women. Some trans women feel traumatized by having had masculinity forced onto them, and respond by being as feminine as possible. Some embrace everything they’ve been and take the strengths of it all. Some are just simply themselves.
Man I guess I’m a bigot, and I’m frustrated about it.
I get the phrase “transwomen are women” and respect that perspective.
But if I were seeking a cis woman partner who is seeking a cis man, it would be a dealbreaker if they were trans.
So I’m confronted with the reality that if I want to believe trans women are women, I shouldn’t be able to hold my second opinion, but it feels like one that can’t budge.
How to reconcile?
Are you attracted to every single woman that exists?
If not, then it is fine to not find certain groups of women not to your preferences without needing to define them as not women.
No, it’s not that I need to label anyone, but in the decision tree of selection, biological, born sexual features is right at the beginning. The character of those features is lower, obviously below personality and mental characteristics. But for example I’d like to have a child, so I need to seek out partners with whom that can possibly happen.
So it isn’t that I’m just like, grading people, it’s that some things are impossible or immoveable
Again this is just me, not attempting to impact anyone else’s path
It’s because you can’t change your sexuality. Being attracted only to CIS women is your sexuality.
But if I were seeking a cis woman partner
You didn’t explain why you’re seeking a cis woman partner. Nobody can say whether you’re transphobic until you give that detail. Try fleshing out this hypothetical and then I can give you a good answer and help you resolve this dilemma.
How to reconcile?
LOL you don’t. “Transwomen are women (except when I am choosing a mate, then I can be selective)”
on the flip side, people should be able to say they want a trans partner.
real talk though, no one should be deceiving anyone if they plan to start a healthy relationship with someone, period.
I’m stealth trans in public and don’t feel it’s necessary to come out to every one i meet or even work with. But if I’m flirting with someone or know someone has an interest in me, I respect them enough to let them know.
it all comes back to the idea that you don’t need to know what someone’s genitals look like unless you plan on fucking them.
I think I that’s a concept that cis straight people don’t get. You don’t come out once. You have a big coming out, once, to friends and family. Then every new person you meet, you decide whether to tell them outright, whether to subtly tell them, or whether you don’t tell them. Each time, you’re considering if you’ll meet them again, if it serves a purposes of it feels like hiding, your safety, whether it will affect their opinion of you and so be to your disadvantage etc. It’s tiring.
I have a pretty small sample size, but it feels like the next generation doesn’t feel that way. My 13-year-old daughter is queer and so are some of her friends and it doesn’t occur to them most of the time that her peers might judge them for it. We did have to take my daughter out of school for severe bullying- because they were calling her a furry (she committed the sin of wearing spiked collars) and spreading rumors that she was racist. She got nothing for being queer.
She’s doing an English project right now and she had to pick an event from history and talk about how it impacted today and I suggested Stonewall. She was pretty baffled about the whole thing. She understood conceptually that being queer was so hated and so dangerous in the 1960s, but she really had no idea.
I told her yesterday about how, even when I was in middle school in 1989-1991, there were no kids out of the closet. When I got to high school, there were a handful of very brave kids who were out and they got beaten up a lot. There was one trans girl and that was because she could pass and didn’t let most people know. Same-gendered couples were not allowed at prom. Even kids (and teachers who could get fired for it) who were undeniably queer hid it from everyone. Two people in my friend circle who were so gay they were on fire didn’t admit it until college. Both times, it was a “well, duh” moment when they came out, but that’s how scared they were to come out.
And, of course, if they did come out, they couldn’t get married if they found someone they loved.
She doesn’t know how bad it all was even when I was a kid and I’m so glad of that. I just hope Trump doesn’t turn it all around.
Is it not more tiring to come out to someone you’re more emotionally invested in, though?
There’s obviously the safety issues that the OP mentioned, but wouldn’t it be easier to not have to deal with an eventual reveal?
Why invest the time and energy into someone who has that much higher a chance that they’ll deny you when you come out?
Yes, but then you would have to come out to everyone first time.
Hi, here’s your coffee. Thanks, I’m trans.
Hi X, meet my friend Y. Hi Y, I’m gay, my name is X, nice to meet you. Umm, I’m not sure I needed to know that.
What about a work colleague that you can’t avoid but they are new and you don’t know how they will react.
That’s the point. The big coming out is for people you are emotionally invested in at that point in time. Then you have to make snap decisions and considered decisions for every new person forever.
on the flip side, people should be able to say they want a trans partner.
Yes, absolutely, I mentioned that part already. Freedom goes both ways. No one should be shamed for choosing to date a trans partner.
Chasers suck for trans people big time. This is a logical fallacy. It’s different if a trans person says they’re only doing T4T to a cis person.
Can you elaborate on this? Is it the usual fetishism (similar to what Asian women often experience) or is it different?
on the flip side, people should be able to say they want a trans partner.
Eh, either or. Depends on user experience and if “What do you want” is going to take less time to fill than “What don’t you want”. But there should definitely be something ensuring people’s time isn’t wasted or feelings hurt because sexual preferences aren’t equally considered.
You should, of course, have your preferences, and your deal-breakers, and whatever else. So if you find someone you are interested in is trans, and that’s a deal-breaker for you, that’s fine.
But there is a difference between that and putting in your bio “No Trans People.” Is being trans your only deal-breaker? What makes that a deal-breaker worth calling out, but not others? Before you put “No Trans” in your profile, I would ask you to consider that, if you are an athletic person and want an athletic person, would “No fat women” be something you would feel comfortable putting in your bio (even if that was a deal-breaker for you)? What would you think of someone who puts “No black people” in their bio?
If they have any sense, they will let you know either in their profile, in conversation before-hand, or during the first date or so (before things get intimate), and you can politely end things, just like if you found out they were Scientologists or several levels up in an MLM (or both). Hell, it may take until a third date, like finding out they don’t just like, but can relate to Olivia Rodrigo’s music. (In fairness, those three were objectively bad, but I don’t know any of your non-trans related preferences, so I had to go with some things most people should consider deal-breakers).
The point is, people look for and look out for a lot of things, but I only ever hear people complain about it being rude to put “No trans.” It kind of makes it clear that the person saying it has a particular issue beyond just dating preferences.
Tact does matter. That is why I say “seeking cis man/woman” is better than “no trans man/woman”. “No black people” is bad, “prefer SWM/SWF” is better and acceptable IMO (disclaimer: I’m black), “looking for athletic man/woman” is better than “no fat people”, etc., just my opinion.
Before you put “No Trans” in your profile, I would ask you to consider that, if you are an athletic person and want an athletic person, would “No fat women” be something you would feel comfortable putting in your bio (even if that was a deal-breaker for you)?
I can see if someone is overweight, of a certain skin color or whatever other visible indicators you mention, and simply not like their profile, so a match would not occur.
I cannot (necessarily) see if someone is trans, so a match would potentially still happen.
So mentioning the “obvious” can be seen as harmful since you are effectively calling people out, while mentioning the “invisible” is merely stating a preference to reduce false positives.
It would be the same as sexuality? If you’re a straight bloke you’d want a cis woman, it’s not comparable to race or fitness. It’s about sexual compatibility.
You think that straight men aren’t attracted to trans women, because you know that straight men are attracted to women and you don’t think trans women are women. This isn’t about sexual preferences, it’s just about you denying trans women’s genders.
I’d argue that a cis man that is attracted to a non-cis woman is not straight by definition. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
This was the best explanation of how this is hurtful that I think you could possibly put together. I came into this thread skeptical of this being a real concern. This changed my mind. Thank you.
Every single thing you’ve said demands specific rebuttal. But I think it would be exhausting and you’re not worth it.
Nearly everything you compare is actually a visible trait, where being trans isn’t. Nobody’s going to be tricked into dating anybody they don’t want when all the attributes are visible up-front. I can SEE if somebody is athletic. I can SEE if somebody is black. I can SEE if somebody is obese.
Quit pretending there’s something wrong with having preferences. You’re delusional and you have no right to pretend that anybody owes anybody anything except honesty up-front in a dating context.
You actually think somebody who is not interested in a trans person OWES a trans person a date “just in case”. Frankly, get your head out of your ass.
Not sure if you stopped reading halfway through, but I mentioned 2 clearly visible things and 3 not visible things, specifically because I recognize it’s not immediately obvious from pictures.
Or maybe you started reading on the second paragraph, because I clearly said it’s fine having preferences (including trans or not). I also never said anything about “owing” a trans person a date, just in case or otherwise. There’s no problem with it being a deal breaker. You’re reading things I didn’t say.
I think it’s telling, though, that you use the word “tricked.” It shows, like my whole comment was saying, that you view being trans as different from other deal breakers, if you think somebody going on a date with a person they didn’t realize was trans was the trans person “tricking” them.
You may be right, but if someone writes “no trans people” or “no d*cks smaller than 25cm” or “no crybabies” or “no n*ggers”, then if you are some of the mentioned, you wouldn’t want to communicate to that person anyway. If you are not, then you still likely wouldn’t.
It’s a natural flow of communication in my opinion. Let people write what they want.
This isn’t a first amendment issue, or an issue of what people should be allowed to say. It’s a question of etiquette, and not being rude. The thing is, saying each of those things would drive away more than just those specifically excluded.
To give a better example, if I were on a dating site and saw a woman who said “No guys under 6 ft,” and I were taller than 6 ft, I still wouldn’t want anything to do with that woman. It give a completely different vibe, however, to say “I really like tall guys.” I get, though, that there’s not a positive equivalent for the original question.
Isn’t it better that people get to show their inner asshole in their profiles so that you can just ignore them and move on instead of them having to hide it because of “etiquette” and then you’re only going to find out later after you’ve already invested time and effort into them?
If someone not wanting to date a person under 6ft is a red flag to you, then isn’t it good that you found out right away? Imagine if they didn’t say this and you only found out when she calls the waiter a manlet on your 3rd date.
It’s as if you haven’t really read what I wrote, repeating what I said with that disagreeing tone.
Many women already put “over 6 foot only” or “only swipe if you have abs” so why not let people filter out what they don’t want before wasting time and money and emotion on a date and talking
And they are wrong for that as well. That sounds like someone I wouldn’t want to be friends with or date bc they reduced someone down to their body parts and not who they are as a person.
Abs do not define someone, abs don’t make someone a better person or have a better personality.
would “No fat women” be something you would feel comfortable putting in your bio (even if that was a deal-breaker for you)?
Why not? Women can put “no short people/manlets” why can’t I put “no fatties/giantesses?” I fail to see how they differ.
Neither are acceptable, especially when it’s propagating ugly labels. All of it is really unnecessary. Swipe left on people you aren’t attracted to, and if you talk to someone and find a dealbreaker, politely disengage without making them feel shitty or othered. It really isn’t that difficult.
And that makes them bigots as well. This is not a this or that. If someone says attracted to men but no short people, they are also a cunt of a person and probably not someone you want to date.
If I am attracted to you, then it does not matter height, weight, etc…
If someone says attracted to men but no short people, they are also a cunt of a person and probably not someone you want to date.
Well facts, that’s actually what I always say. But let’s be honest women body shaming men is still a lot more culturally acceptable than the reverse and often people are hypocritical when it comes to this topic. You sound cool, but it is a topic that deserves to have attention brought to it, as not everyone is as cool.
What makes that a deal-breaker worth calling out, but not others?
Being trans doesn’t necessarily show outwards unlike being fat would. If I’m looking for a guy that doesn’t automatically mean this includes FTM.
Neither does a micro penis (or serious erectile dysfunction) and that might be a deal breaker for you. But it would still be rude to say “No small dicks, and don’t message me if you can’t get it up.” But is it worth addressing, prior to being intimate? Absolutely.
1: not unpopular
2: if this is a scenario you are actually seeing in real life, you should find better people to hang out with.
It’s stuff I encounter online. But stuff online festers for years, and then erupts in real life. MAGA and QANON, for instance, was festering from USENET in the 1990s and forums thereafter. I watched it happen. Everyone ignored it, and now look where we are. MAGA of course is a whole different scale of true horror but still. This mentality I’m mentioning is festering. All cancers begin this way.
I dunno man, now days more than ever I consider online discourse to be an alternate reality. Sure a lot of what you said is valid in terms of it giving fringe politics an echo chamber and cohesion. That aside I rarely see even common stuff like what you mentioned in the OP manifest meaningfully irl. I’ve seen the “only wanting to date Cis is bigotry” online too and not once irl and thats including discussing similar with trans people.
Just my 2c, I see a lot of frustration from online discourse bleed into irl when it should be left there for the most part.
Yes, a lot of what you’re saying is true. Most trans people I know online and IRL aren’t like that. But I just wanted to speak up in case another looney fringe idea catches on. Everyone knew the politics of Trump or DeSantis politics was even loonier by an order of magnitude - and look what’s going on now. I’ll give you this - I hope my fears are overblown. I am not invested in “I told you so” yet again.
Who, exactly, is saying that having a sexual preference is bigoted? I’ve heard rumors about this argument, but never encountered it in the wild.
Admittedly it’s been a few years but I had this argument on Reddit and caught a ban from a handful of subs for hate speech for arguing that not wanting a trans partner was not the same thing as being anti trans.
I don’t remember my exact phrasing, I did then and still do believe that trans rights are human rights, that trans people are in real danger at no fault of their own, and that their healthcare is important and should start early. But that doesn’t mean I can be attracted to someone I know is trans, and I think that being trans should be divulged in a relationship, and divulged early.
That’s a viewpoint that some, and I use the term lightly, radical activists don’t want to hear, and will absolutely accuse you of transphobia. That doesn’t mean it’s common, or that the community at large agrees with it. But there are individuals who espouse that nonsense.
Serious question - you said “But that doesn’t mean I can be attracted to someone I know is trans”
Why is this? Based on what you said wrote here you seemed to be able to be attracted to them before you know they are trans but the moment you find out that they are trans, you no longer are attracted to them.
If you reduce someone down to their features and say I can’t date you bc you have XYZ features, but you are perfect in every other way and just what I am looking for in a woman, but I can’t date you bc of that. How is reducing someone to something that is out of their control not phobic?
My other question is this - post op transwoman, would you still be attracted to her if you knew she had bottom surgery and no longer had a penis?
Personally, I have encountered in an odd situation. Gay dating app, trans woman being friendly, so I was friendly back, but told her I wasn’t interested. She went ballistic, saying how I could live the dream, have a straight looking relationship, that surely a masc guy like me wanted that, and that I could still get dick with her, and when I told her that was not what I was looking for, at all, she went into the rant, calling me transphobic and saying that I was discriminating her.
I just blocked her and I will never be entirely sure if it was a troll or not.
That’s the reverse situation though, isn’t it? You treated her as a woman and said “no thanks, I’m gay” and she responded with “it’s ok, because I have a dick and am basically a man”. Didn’t she just transphobia herself?
Look at the apps, most these days will not permit you to exclude trans from your criteria
