I have the words “software engineer” in my job title but I hate it.
We aren’t engineers, we’re a bunch of undisciplined hackers, engineers have standards and ethics.
Programmer is my preferred term, or software developer.
Code monkey is also acceptable.
But then it all circles back around. I have advanced degrees in (non software) engineering from actual top tier engineering schools and I should not be trusted to write production code. That’s what software engineers are for.
I disagree with that. I mean, I don’t know how good you are at writing software, so maybe you shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near production code. But, just because code is “production” doesn’t mean it should exclusively be the domain of people who are “software engineers”.
In my mind, software engineering involves implementing new algorithms that are from a computer science paper you just read, or architecting a big and complex system. Or, if there are lives on the line. I’d want people writing code for a new Space Shuttle to think of themselves as engineers, not just code monkeys.
But, a self-taught developer is fine to update production code for a web app as long as they write the correct tests and get it peer reviewed.
My doctor’s digital prescription service has been ransomwared. It’s been a few weeks, and they paid the millions of dollars in Bitcoin or whatever, but it’s still encrypted and my doctor had to write me a prescription on paper.
The fact that a digital prescription service could have that happen is madness to me. The fact that they don’t have offline backups for prescriptions is insane. Yes, they could have been in there for a while, encrypting everything, but if the company had tested its backups they’d have found out immediately.
All of these are things that wouldn’t have happened if computing professions were held to standards.
if computing professions were held to standards.
Ok, sure. What standards? For fields like Civil Engineering it’s pretty easy to come up with reasonable standards. But, if a software engineer is writing a generic key-value store, how do you evaluate whether that item meets the required standards?
There are things that a developer can and should check to make sure his code is secure, but my focus is mainly on the systems and those can definitely be held to standards. Things like checking dependencies for known exploits, enforcing 2FA and TLS on all connections, encrypting data at rest, and testing backups, among a lot of other stuff.
I’ve worked with hundreds of organizations across many different industries in my career and almost none of them do all or even most of those, even if they need to be compliant for things like HIPAA or SOX. I once worked with an aerospace company whose sysadmin/webmaster/network guy was literally the founder’s son, who got the job because he knew how to make a web page.
Depends. I’ve studied for my engineering title, I have standards and ethics. Requirements, specification, design, architecture, programming, testing, integration, delivery, everything is part of my job. If you are a programmer, you only do programming.
Yeah, that’s bullshit.
Look at the state of software in the world. Even for Boeing standards, most software is abysmal. You can have personal standards all you want, if business daddy wants to deliver untested crap, I might object, but I can’t stop it and it’s usually not a hill I would want to die on.
I might object, but I can’t stop it
I’d argue that if you seriously consider yourself a software engineer, and you take the “engineer” part seriously, you should be quitting and blowing the whistle if that happens. If you just go along with it, then sure, you’re not an engineer.
That’s why I said it depends. If a billion dollar company decides to cut costs even more to gain more and more profits, they hire an army of codemonkeys in India and that is what you get.
If you work at a mid sized company interested in sustainable growth, you might get a software engineering position where you are the business daddy and if you say “I won’t deliver that untested” then it won’t be delivered untested.
I’m working at a company in Germany and we are leading in our field. I have one boss and he listens to what I tell him because he doesn’t have a clue about software engineering and that’s what he hired me and my team for.
Look into Agile, servant leadership and new work (the real stuff and not the garbage “hip” companies want to make you believe) if you want to understand.
It’s the old principles that kill companies like Boeing, because they think they can make big profits like it’s 1984 solely by pumping money into an army of wage slaves.
I’ve been a programmer my whole career, but some years ago my then-employer gave me the actual title of “visionary”. This caused me to immediately lose the respect of my coworkers, and after a few months it was obvious my employer was just preparing to get rid of me and replace me with H-1Bs.
Engineers put a lot of work into figuring out ways to sidestep their standards and ethics
Not engineer.
At least here in Germany, engineer is a protected profession. Other than that: All of the above.
Hmmm. But all the people around me working in software studied multiple years in an Engineering field. In my case, I studied a 5-year industrial engineering and two masters afterwards; I feel very comfortable wearing the “software engineer” or more accurately “robotics engineer” badge.
During the 2008 recession, a lot of Uber drivers had engineering degrees. I guess we should start calling Uber drivers engineers too.
No, that’s precisely the opposite of my point. If you drive an Uber, you’re an Uber driver. People are “CEO” or “Judge” despite nobody having a CEO or Judge degree. Your profession is what you do, not what you happened to study in your teens to get there.
How come they don’t count? They’re figuring out how the machines should work, for money. That’s engineering, right? (I’m an American mechanical engineer)
That is not entirely true. It’s a bit more complicated. Yes it is protected since the 1970s but it’s more of an academic title. You needed to study something that is “mainly” of technological or scientific nature. Basically befire the Bologna reform every student in Tec. Unis/FHs did get the title Diplom-Ingenieur. So the engineer part was literally part of your degree. This of course also true in case you studied IT. So yes there are many who call themselves IT engineers also in Germany. However it’s more of a philosophical question how much software development is actually engineering or rather craftsmanship.
Softwareingenieur darf man sich nennen, wenn man ein mathematisch-naturwissenschaftliches Fach studiert hat, wo Informatik dazugehört. Somit ist Software Engineer oder Softwareingenieur die korrekte Berufsbezeichnung für alle mit einem Bachelor/Master oder höher in Informatik.
Yeah, same in the UK. Really annoyed me that the plumber, electrician… etc were all engineers. In Germany it’s as protected as calling yourself doctor, which ultimately affects how people view the profession and the salaries they command
It does not only dictate your professional life/status in Germany, being a doctor, your social as well. Someone I know got a postdoc in germany, no luck finding a place to live until they started asking their german collegues to call and saying “doctor so-and-so is looking for an appartment”. So, he gets one. The guy has a very long full name, so the nametag the landlord is gonna put on the postbox is way to long, but if you cut off the part where it says he is a doctor, it would fit. He insists to cut that part away, the landlord just refuses, says fuck your name and person basically, and cuts off part of his last name instead. Saying you are a doctor gets you first in fucking everything (maybe not lufthansa, then they just say ‘senators’ or something). Extremely class divided social society that.
I mean, it’s a protected term in Canada too but it doesn’t necessarily lead to higher salaries.
My cousin who’s an electrician made about as much as I did as an electrical engineer, and I left electrical engineering to be a software developer because it paid more. Engineering paid more than being an electrical technician / designer, but not by a huge amount.
As a Mechanical Engineer, a massive fuck you to everyone who calls software development, programming, or network management a form of “engineering”. Do you know how much extra work is now needed to filter out job postings when you’re looking for an ACTUAL engineering position?
Ok, not a ton of extra work, but it’s still really good damn annoying when 2 out of 3 posts are actually for developers. You guys belong in the T in STEM, not the E. Stay in your fucking lane!
As a mechanical engineer turned software developer, I do consider the task to be fundamentally an engineering task.
It’s just that the willingness to forgive ineptitude in software is infinitely greater… So much so that the industry has completely normalized absolute garbage work.
It’s engineering, just with systemically terrible engineers.
Considering how poorly described the vast majority of software jobs are listed, I really can’t feel sorry for you lol
Just try searching “front end [insert your preferred title]” and see how many jobs are actually just frontend.
IMO if they’re not an educated Computer Engineer, or at a minimum have a math-focused degree, then calling them Engineers is more than a little generous.
If they have a degree in engineering, then they are an engineer.
Yeah, it’s weird to me as an engineer that when I’m on Lemmy people use that word to mean programmer. Nah, I work in a factory and had to learn thermodynamics
It’s always been weird to me as someone who isn’t an engineer in degree or title why those with degrees in engineering think people shouldn’t use an accurately descriptive word like engineer when it’s perfectly appropriate just because it’s a little to close to the title of their licensed profession.
Engineer is a verb, to devise or contrive something. Simply, to design a construct. A programmer by definition engineers a program and is therefore by the rules of the English language, an engineer.
They may not be a Licensed Professional Engineer, but an Engineer they remain.
In my mind, the line is that an engineer is someone that can commit a crime by doing their job incompetently. If the only things at risk are your job and your pride, that’s a different thing.
“I program all day, so there’s a lot of trial and error. My friend is a negligent civil engineer, so there’s a lot of error and trial.”
Ooh the EEs will haaaaaate that lol. I generally disagree with that statement but I also totally see it.
What if it’s a degree in a field of engineering that’s not related to software or hardware?
But, we’re not talking about formal titles. We’re talking about job titles. I’ve never heard of someone called “Engineer Jones”, just “Mr. Jones who is an Engineer”.
If you’re a doctor of musical theory but you work in human resources as a clerk and someone asks you for your job title, you don’t say “Doctor Clerk”, you say “Clerk”.
So, if you’re trained as a Civil Engineer but you changed careers and are now writing javascript, are you a Software Engineer, whereas someone with a Computer Science degree can’t claim that title?
