Before everyone gets down on non-dairy milk drinkers, remember that the government subsidizes the hell out of dairy milk production to make it cheaper in the first place.
Is that accurate?
I used to buy a lot of soy milk since I’m lactose intolerant and it was cheaper than milk a decade ago. But now it’s nearly the same price or double for the same brand. And now I’m wondering if it’s a Soy conspiracy.
Most farming is subsidized, the debate then is which one is subsidized more. A bit of a specious argument at the end of the day.
Soy is heavily subsidized. It’s the main crop in most Midwestern states, even more than corn.
More to the relevant point, those alt milks are still cheaper to produce and Starbucks has the scale to do so. You know what it takes to make oatmilk? Oats, sugar, water, small amount of oil. Almond milk? Replace oat with almond, except you can use more of the material.
The plaintiffs say in the lawsuit that lactose intolerance is a disability listed under the Americans with Disabilities Act, and the surcharges violate that act.
Is it though? I mean don’t get me wrong, it sucks that people who are lactose intolerant have to pay more, but is it really a disability?
I’m lactose intolerant but even I think this is absurd. What about every other food allergy in existence? Should substitutions cost the same even if the ingredients don’t? Furthermore, we’re talking about a splurge item from a coffee shop. You can still make coffee at home or buy coffee without milk in it.
Well the ADA only requires ‘reasonable’ accommodations. So I guess the logic of this case would be that if the substitution only costs a little bit more than the original ingredient then they should offer it at the same price. But this would still allow for business to charge extra when making the substitution would be ‘unreasonably’ expensive.
Therein lies the rub as what one person considers reasonable another might not. Charging 1:1 for the increased cost of almond or soy milk seems reasonable but charging an additional markup over what they set for dairy milk might not be.
If their case has merit, I hope they win, but I honestly wish these lawyer fees and court time could be better used to tackle more lucrative issues like suing Ticketmaster/Live Nation for their whole anti-consumer business model and price gouging or suing Comcast for their monopoly in my area. There are probably 1000 different places to buy coffee in my city but only one way to buy event tickets and one company offering broadband/high speed internet.
What’s absurd is that Almond, Soy, and Oat doesn’t cost more than dairy milk when you look at prices at a grocery. But Starbucks charges extra for it anyway.
I think a lot of people have no idea that many dairy alternatives are essentially the same price now. And that’s at a retail consumer level where the markups are biggest in the chain, bulk wholesale like what Starbucks pays would have an even smaller gap.
People are assuming there’s a massive difference in price, that just doesn’t really exist anymore… And that also ignores the absolutely MASSIVE markup Starbucks has for their coffee in the first place. It definitely doesn’t cost Starbucks $.50 to use Oat milk instead of regular milk, but that’s what they might charge the consumer for the substitution in a $6 coffee that cost them maybe $0.50 to make.
What’s absurd is thinking that this argument makes logical sense. Do you think Starbucks buys milk at the grocery store? What do you think the ratio of milk to each milk alternative is? 100:1? 1000:1? The scale at which the purchase each would greatly affect the price.
When I worked at a restaurant that used a lot of milk it came in a 3 or 5 gallon plastic sack that went into a dispensing machine. Milk alternatives are likely purchased by the case in consumer packaging. The cost is entirely different.
Even if it isn’t, I’d prefer a world where people aren’t shitting their pants or leaving toxic fart clouds in their wake because they need to save .50 on a coffee.
If it does, then the cost difference to the business should probably be subsidized / written off in taxes.
If you adhere to that philosophy, then why not adhere to the fact that there are other coffee shops customers can take their business and let the better shop who can achieve cheaper rates for alternative milks win as opposed to imposing a price control?
This isn’t Healthcare where shopping around isn’t an option, and it isn’t a niche thing where there isn’t competition.
Shit I’m all for strong market regulations, but this might be a tad too far and ignorant to business ownership – especially one where we seek new entrepreneurs and not mega companies who can afford teams of lawyers.
The issue with the ADA is that it does not specify what counts as a disability, rather it gives an explanation of what is considered a disability. This leads to endless confusion and to court cases exactly like this, which are leveraging the text of the ADA as it stands to make their point.
The lawyer quoted in the article is correct, considering they already accommodate people with diabetes without surcharge, it can be argued the same courtesy needs to be extended to the lactose intolerant, who do not have a “choice” in whether they can consume dairy.
Because they cannot just consume dairy like other customers, the lawyer is arguing that no longer charging for the difference is a “reasonable accomodation” to the fact that their clients bodies cannot process dairy. That definitely rises to the same level of reasoning for those who suffer diabetes, in my opinion.
Anyway, that’s the frustrating thing about a lot of the ADA. It basically requires people who don’t know if their unique position qualifies them to spend a lot of money on lawyers up-front just to find out if the courts will actually accept that as true. It’s really well fucked because most disabled people don’t have money to be pissing away on such a legal project. Most of them are busy just trying to survive. In other words, most of the time you have to hope a lawyer will take up your case pro-bono.
Source: My cancer isn’t cancery or debilitating enough to count as a disability, even though “cancer” is in the list on the ADA website.
This leads to endless confusion and to court cases exactly like this, which are leveraging the text of the ADA as it stands to make their point.
That’s how common-law systems are designed to work, though (along with delegation to regulators in the executive branch). You can’t really expect the legislature to think through every single nuance and corner-case a-priori, right?
Oh of course, but I was speaking of people who are seriously disabled (not just people with lactose intolerance) and that severely impacts their ability to just go out and get a lawyer to fight for their rights.
Like, the lactose intolerant, I’m pretty okay with them needing to come up with the money to prove it in court. Lactose intolerance may be considered a disability, but it doesn’t rise to the level of disability that makes it hard to hold a job.
However, a lot of other people are stuck, shit out of luck, unable to work, hell, often unable to move, and they’re still fighting for their problems to be recognized as a disability. Further, even with a disability that’s accepted as a disability, you still have to go to court and fight, often for years, to get a disability recognized. You’re not allowed to work while you’re waiting for that classification. It’s just a bad system for it.
The common-law system is fine and good, but we’re all aware of how it’s absolutely tilted in favor of people who have money and against those who don’t.
I got a disability lump sum for temporary disability due to a nerve disorder. It was based on my previous income and the percentage of time an expert judge I was able to work. (20% according to the expert.)
I only for $14,000 for 3 years of being disabled.
The disorder is now managed with medication, incidentally.
Lactose intolerance is actually normal. It’s tolerance to lactose as an adult that is biologically unusual, and mostly unique to westerners. Because most of us continue eating dairy products after infancy, we continue being able to digest them. However other cultures don’t continue consuming dairy after infancy, and thus lose their ability to digest it effectively.
It’s a really tough argument to claim it as a disability. I don’t see this case going well for the plaintiffs.
I am allergic to milk. If I ingest it I will die full stop. Food allergies should be considered as a disability in this case because if I wanted coffee with soy milk I shouldn’t be made to pay extra for something out of my control. That being said since my allergies are severe enough I don’t eat anything I don’t make myself so this wouldn’t impact me anyway but I agree with the principle of the case.
The reasonable accommodation is offering non-dairy options at all even if it’s slightly more.
Or they can remove the dairy product at no additional fee (which they do). If someone wants to add an additional, more expensive ingredient, then they can pay for it.
Well, maybe they are suing the wrong entity then. Dunkin and Starbucks don’t set the price of almond milk.
I’m severely lactose intolerant, so you know what I do? I DON’T FUCKING DRINK LATTES. A restaurant is under no obligation to give me a non-dairy substitute at no cost. If you want what a restaurant sells, buy it. If you don’t like what they sell or think it’s too expensive, fucking don’t and get on with your life.
According to the Americans with disabilities act, they apparently are under obligation to do it.
They’re under obligation to make a reasonable accommodation. They accomplish this in 2 ways. You can either order it without milk, or you can pay extra for a milk substitute.
Restaurants aren’t required to provide gluten-free pasta, fake seafood, or artificial peanut products just because some people can’t eat everything on the menu.
The ADA has very specific language about not charging extra for reasonable accommodations, and dietary restrictions are mentioned.
Restaurants are not required to stock ingredients for all allergies, and they are not required to order in special ingredients on request. But starbucks does stock non-dairy milks. Using the non-dairy milk that they already stock is a reasonable accommodation.
The case is based on a good faith reading of title III of the ADA. It’s not unreasonable to argue that charging extra is illegal in this case.
Do you have a source? My understanding was that they were under obligation to not charge for the accommodations, hence the lawsuit.
Do you have a source for that? From what I’ve found, food allergies are generally not considered a disability and therefore no accomodation is obligatory.
The ADA is a complex law, like all laws. Food allergies are mentioned by the ADA.
Although food allergies don’t require proactive accommodation, disabled people are entitled to equal access despite their disability.
If a restaurant offers no substitutions that’s fine. But if a restaurant offers substitutions but refuses it for those with allergies, that’s not fine.
If a restaurant doesn’t stock non-allergic ingredients it doesn’t have to. But if the restaurant will stock special ingredients upon request, they must do the same for disabled customers.
In this case, starbucks DOES stock and offer non-dairy milks. Using a different milk is probably a reasonable accommodation. The ADA has rules against charging extra for reasonable accomodations.
The conclusion that starbucks charging extra is a violation of the ADA is not an unreasonable one.
Lol your wrong about restaurants having no obligation to provide a substitute.
That’s such a sad point of view about what you think you deserve. You should treat yourself better.
Lol wut. Why is a restaurant obligated to give you special treatment or free things? If you are allergic to peanuts are they obligated to fry their fries in a separate oil just for you??
Allergies are caused by proteins, not oils generally, so peanut oil is safe for almost all people with allergies, although culturally, peanut oil just isn’t that used much anymore because most businesses want money from as many people as possible and don’t want to risk people’s lives out of economic principles.
This is the issue with libertarianism. The argument is always an attempt at framing the conversation to an acceptable level of death in the name of expanding markets, without realizing that death actually limits markets.
Damn, sucks to be you.
Stand up for yourself instead of putting a shitty corporation above yourself.
Going by some arguments in this thread, to ask a restaurant to be considerate for a section of the population is considered entitled but being a cheapskate and selfish money guzzler is a god given right and should be something to be proud of. Like, it doesn’t even cost the restaurant $1-$2 extra per serving. Of course, when it comes to money… fuck being considerate right?
I used to work in restaurants (both big and small), and while what you said is true, it only cost $1-2 extra per serving. But the restaurant can never stock their ingredients by “per serving”. They have to buy wholesale from their suppliers. It really hurts smaller businesses when they only get to use a couple servings out of their 5 gallon non-dairy milk jug, then have to throw it out. Those things added up fast, and that’s just one example.
It’s common in restaurants and cafés in Europe to use normal 1L milk cartons even for normal milk - can’t that be done in the US as well?
I get why restaurants need to buy in bulk, but why is the packaging is so huge?
they only get to use a couple servings out of their 5 gallon non-dairy milk jug
Don’t buy so much at one time then? Doesn’t seem that difficult a problem to solve, I do it every time my dairy-averse partner stays over for the weekend. Buy an amount that is reasonable for expected usage needs, it’s easy. I’m not out here buying a 5 gallon bucket and then whining when my guests haven’t drank all of it.
I don’t know what the profit margins of Starbucks are, but in many cases they’re much tighter than people realize. The sale price has to cover materials, wages, insurance, property costs, and lots of other things. $1 a serving would be a pretty huge percent increase.
You could make the same argument about anything. I want the higher end iPhone and they should give it to me for the same price as the lower end to be considerate. If they don’t they’re greedy. I want leather seats in my car for the same price as cloth. And there are loads of restaurants that charge extra for substitutions if the substitute costs more (e.g., “premium sides”).
