the whole de-federating thing is seriously turning me off to the whole concept of lemmy, it’s like little dictators with their sceptres cutting off entire communities from each other. it’s a major flaw and I hope it gets addressed as lemmy/fediverse evolves, or else it’s not going to work
(e.g. if a server full of nazis appears, we want it to be defederated immediately).
This seems obvious to everyone else, but not to me. Why would we want to do that instead of just dealing with them one by one when needed or just individually blocking communities/users?
I’m extremely uncomfortable with an authority deciding for me what I may see in my feed and what not.
Authority deciding what you see? You mean like Reddit does? With Lemmy you can always change servers, heck, even set up your own server with your own rules.
The problem for those operating a Lemmy instance is that they are hosting copies of the content of all federated instances.
So if one instance is filled with illegal content, the admins of all federated instances must remove it on their instances to avoid law enforcement kicking down their doors.
If there is too much illegal content on one instance to effectively moderate manually, defederation is the solution.
This is beside the fact, that some might have their own additional non-legally mandated requirements for content they host on their platform.
Why would we want to do that instead of just dealing with them one by one when needed or just individually blocking communities/users?
Who would be “dealing with them one by one”? People seem to keep forgetting that lemmy, both the code and the infraatructure, is developed and maintained by hobbyists, not by a company.
I’m extremely uncomfortable with an authority deciding for me what I may see in my feed and what not.
You should really think about this, in my opinion, entiteled attitude… You are not the one paying for the server, you are not the one running the server you are certainly not the one who will have to deal with potential legal actions if illegal shit is going on on your instance…
You are not entiteled to any of this… You don’t have to pay in any way for any of it and lemmy admins don’t earn any money from you…
Imagine not only getting into trouble for a hobby, but have random people complain about “authority” because you don’t want to/can’t deal with potentially illegal shit on your server…
If you are so concerned about “authority” and about “what you see on your feed”, start your own server and federate with whoever you want, or start a server that is collectively owned and controlled by it’s users or something like that… You can very very easily do that…
No one is stopping you from joining a server full of Nazis.
Those openly avocating violence and cruelty towards others who are being neither violent or cruel aren’t “just another reasonable point of view that deserves to be heard”
If you don’t want someone to decide who you can connect with, you can spin your own instance. Otherwise every instance has admins that aren’t you
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Why would anyone want to stay connected to a Nazi community, except for the obvious reasons?
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Nothing prevents people from just creating new accounts on another instance of lemmy - ban evasion is trivial.
If you’re uncomfortable with this feel free to set up your own server.
You seem to be saying that moderation actions should be performed against users, not instances. You’re not getting that instances ARE users. On a network where anyone can create an instance, and then as many accounts on that instance as they like, moderating accounts from a hostile instance is POINTLESS.
Two things.
First, you can opt to follow that instance still, but I don’t know why you would want to hang out with a bunch of Nazis.
Second, I liken it to cutting out a cancerous growth. If you have an instance infested with Nazis and those Nazis are not being stopped due to a lack of admin and/or mods or worse actively being promoted by an admin then defederate them to keep the Nazis from spreading.
Look at the incel and redpill movements that happened on Reddit. Failure to act quick enough helped the movements grow. They were vitriolic to most people but most of them didn’t break any rules. They were destructive in nature and validated misogyny but Reddit didn’t act until it was a very vocal and well established community on its platform. Now, even after closing down their major subreddits, those users who weren’t the most extreme still actively espouse the values of those communities and have created new subreddits.
Or in this case Beehaw has some very progressive ideals, with rules that require a lot more active moderation, they can’t handle the influx of everyone jumping ship from Reddit. Instead of leaving the gate open for people who will ignore the rules it’s better to shut it and open a smaller “apply to join” door creating a protective barrier from individuals that may be Nazis.
In closing, I’ve both been a shitty redditor and seen shitty redditors and I appreciate that the fediverse has tools to decouple and recouple as needed. And again, if you like hanging out with Nazis that instance still exists and you can willingly hang out with Nazis.
I wrestle with this, I really do. Part of the way forward for me and part of the problem at the same time is finding consistency in the application of principles. I can acknowledge change over time in how I see this issue, but that change could be described as hypocrisy. I know when I first heard about and began to really get into Reddit, I was very much in the let the upvotes decide camp and felt it aligned with my generally liberal even leftist views. To begin to apply caveats to this idea should seem then to be a back step and admission that I don’t fully believe in democratic values or equal rights to beliefs and opinions.
But over time I’ve tried to reconcile this with certain emerging realities. Especially those brought about by the nature of the internet in particular. People will often bring up things like Nazis as their go-to example of why you should embrace moderation and intervention in open forums. It’s a pretty good example because they’re a fairly widely held archetype of an intolerable world view that almost everyone agrees they wouldn’t endorse, which is a useful extreme in any discussion on this topic even if a tired one. But one can always ask, “surely then, these Nazis would be a marginal and irrelevant influence? There’s no need to sacrifice the purity of our dedication to open discussion by intervening to banish such views on internet forums, the users and voting systems will do it, and if they don’t, then maybe it’s what ‘the people’ wanted after all?” Well sure, but this theoretical approach ignores realities such as the mechanisms that will be used to push this fringe and near universally reviled set of ideas to the mainstream fore. The machinery of the internet allows for malicious actors not to just put out their views on a virtual speaker’s corner, but infect and flood a forum and artificially distort it in to basically, a nazi forum. They’re not honest idealists trying to sell their relatively unpopular wares in the market of ideas, they’re walking around pushing everyone else’s stalls over or surreptitiously supplanting their own materials in to everyone else’s shop front. In a more literal sense they’ll use bots, they’ll use alts, they’ll brigade, they’ll insert Nazism in to every topic where it’s not relevant, they’ll organise together and purposefully distort voting for posts by automated means or just by a perverse dedication to poisoning the well by consistently voting on ideology rather than interest. They’ll use open hostility to make a place generally unpleasant enough to be around that there’s a disincentive for anyone except those whose only desire is to promote Nazism, to even bother contributing which will further reinforce the distorted influence of this small but dedicated group of bastards dilligently constructing an echo chamber for themselves and they’ll point to that echo chamber and their outsized influence in it and declare it the will of the people for the relative lack of a counter narrative. They’ll cry foul and rail against censorship when attempts are finally made to curtail them as they simultaneously smother anything like free speech themselves through their continuing degradation of it.
“But can’t we do that? What makes them special? If all it takes is dedication to an ideology shouldn’t we just fight with equal zeal?” maybe, but this takes us back to the purpose of the forum, and of the individual instances too. If, on each visit, your time is dedicated to trying to fight bad faith actors deliberately perverting the discourse from either an explicitly stated topic (for a specialised instance) or just general discussion, then you’re really not getting what you wanted or needed out of that place anymore.
The same applies to something less ideologically loaded but working in a similar fashion, ads, shitposting and astro turfing. Those are things you can be pretty sure you won’t miss and we’re all better off without, but similar to insidious fringe political groups, they will work against your idealistic principles to force themselves in to spaces you’d hoped to carve out apart from their malign influence. They’ll fight dirty and use your tolerant policies to help them proliferate. Unchecked, they completely overrun a comment section, they do it at scale, with automation and strategy and often with backing which gives them staying power and an asymmetric ability compared to administrators and general users alike but technically, they’re just sharing ideas, equally as valid as any other. They, like Nazis will also be probing the weaknesses of administrators, they’ll use techniques that render case by case examination of borderline unacceptable behaviour ineffective and impractical and thereby side step moderation that’s not empowered to deal with them at equal scale.
It is the sad nature of humanity and the internet that such things are predictable and inevitable. It means free speech is ironically something that has to be maintained through seemingly antithetical means, it’s part of why it even exists as a concept, otherwise surely all speech would just be free speech by default and there’d be no point giving it a name. It’s something that despite it’s name actually requires careful balancing to make sure it really is actually free for everyone and that that concept not being abused to effectively amplify the speech of small groups at the expense of everyone else. Knowing all this if you are hosting a discussion platform you have a dilemma, do you choose not to act, in order to preserve the sanctity and purity of your principles and commitment to providing a platform for open discussion; only to watch that platform transform from such in to its very antithesis, or do you actively take steps to make sure your speaker’s corner remains such both in theory and in practice.
Everyone missing the point because the example is “Nazis”. It doesn’t matter what it is, I don’t want someone else deciding what I can see. Unless it causes legal problems for the server, don’t censor me.
Individual servers isn’t the quick answer everyone seems to think it is.
Eh, if it were easier to block an instance as a user, I’d be 100% with you instead of 95%.
There are instances that are batshit crazy. Since blocking an instance as a user just ain’t possible yet, I can see why defederation before trouble gets going is useful. Once the nasty side of the internet gets snowballing, it’s much harder to manage.
Troll, or serious extremist, some things are just cancerous.
These are good points but apparently it was just a community on that instance… The instance itself wasn’t the problem. You can in fact block a community as a user. People absolutely have the power to block the_Donald community on that instance on their own.
Since blocking an instance as a user just ain’t possible yet
I don’t think that would solve the legal issue so it doesn’t really matter in many cases. Even if you personally blocked an instance, your home instance will still recieve copies of that instance as long as someone else is interacting with it. And with that comes the fear of unintentionally hosting something illegal on your instance becasue you have the copies from that other instance.
So again there would be no other solution than defederating.
People can block communities right? That might make more sense than just severing connections to other servers completely?
See, that would be such a better option. Let individual users block servers from appearing for them alone in any interactive sense. The Beehaw defederation was not only terrible timing, but it exposed the biggest achilles heel of this whole idea.
Can you elaborate more on this? Its a tangent, but one I’m out of the loop on.
Why DID beehaw split?
Tell that to admins with strong opinions, and other admins who don’t wanna anger admins with strong opinions and get defederated for not defederating the offenders.
That’s the part that gets me. Like, I’m all for “it’s your server do what you want,” but I do judge you if your reason for defederating my server is something so stupid as “this other server says they’re bad, so I’ll trust that.”
You fools ain’t never had a friend spread a runor about another friend? Never watched a sitcom? People lie lol, if you’re going to make overarching decisions that affect your users too, you could maybe stand to do a modicum of your own research into it instead of just letting the one you “trust” bully you into compliance simply because this other masto instance doesn’t cater specifically to marxists, and “capitalists are nazis” so they must be banned or else they’ll speak!
My masto server is defederated for being anti trans, yet one of our organizations key members has been a trans woman since 1981 and she’s one of the most prolific posters on the server (and one of the best, I might add). We’re labeled “anti trans” simply because we didn’t defederate with a server that is actually anti trans when the “good guys” tried to bully my admin into it, but the admin respects us enough to allow us to make our own decisions regarding what we want to see or not see on our feed, so of course that suggests to these reactionaries that he wants to somehow exterminate the jewish people.
I’d be more open to it frankly if I wasn’t a direct example of how that system can be and is being abused to create echo chambers and bully those who don’t want to live in them. By all means, your server your right to do so, but my right to think you’re a bad person for it if it’s for silly unresearched reasons such as this. And you might say “they don’t have the time to investigate everything, so they just throw the book at it.” Well, they chose to become admins, they chose that job, maybe managing a public server just isn’t for them, I know I don’t have the time, that’s why I don’t do it.
This is why I’m happy to be on my own private instance and part of what really turned me on to Lemmy. It’s trivial to spin up your own instance if you’re technically inclined. You have complete control over what you see and aren’t subject to some power hungry admin on some server like Beehaw. That’s what makes the fediverse so great imo
I was trying to set up my own 0.17.4 instance for a week. I have used docker professionally. 0.17.4 wasn’t trivial to set up. The instructions were full of errors and omissions. I basically had to rewrite the whole docker-compose.yml myself.
Of course, right when I was at the finish line, they released 0.18.0 and rewrote the instructions, and now it gets you 90% of the way right out of the box. There was still one omission to pull an nginx config file, and then you need to get your own certificate and add it to that config file (or use a reverse proxy, but I have no need for that at the moment).
At least it’s much easier than it was 3 days ago.
If I didn’t already have a bunch of shit running in containers that I don’t want to risk messing up, I would have looked into using their Ansible instructions. But I really don’t like running scripts on my server (especially as root!) unless I know everything that it’s doing.
How hard would you say it is for a non-programmer to set up their own instance?
Sounds painful. Hopefully, you embraced the FOSS mindset and contributed the missing 10% to the docs.
So you would prefer massive dictators with a profit motive instead? Because that’s the alternative you are advocating for.
The entire point of federation as a tool of decentralisation is to address the issue of Spez, Musk, Zuckerberg and so on. Massive corporate dictators of the internet.
The solution is to split up the massive dictators into lots and lots of smaller ones, who can federate with who they want to in order to make a bigger space, and ultimately provide you with the choice of which approach you like better. It ultimatley allows all of these spaces to shut out corporate advertising as well because if McDonalds ever makes a fucking instance everyone will defederate that shit to get away from the advertising immediately.
If you like the mega dictators better. Reddit is over there. I assume you do not, because that’s why you left it.
Don’t show your ass like this. Don’t do the “oh you like waffles so you hate pancakes???” meme. I didn’t say or suggest a single thing you just said.
What I actually DID say is that allowing mods admins to defederate entire communities is stupid. If you want to talk about THAT, fine.
EDIT: admins, not mods, my mistake, thanks god
I didn’t say or suggest a single thing you just said.
Of course you did. You said that the defederating thing turns you off the concept of Lemmy, and you advocated for it to be not-a-feature.
You are advocating for centralised mega platforms owned by mega dictators.
The are two options. Centralisation, or decentralisation. That’s it. There is no magic alternative. This is the material reality that exists.
If it turns you off Lemmy, then what you are advocating for is centralisation. The literal polar opposite of what the entire fediverse aims to be and exists to solve. There is not an alternative and there will not be. You either get one owner of a super site or thousands of owners of minisites that federate in order to be emulate a supersite without the oversight. That’s it. There is no third-way.
I mean I’d rather people have freedom over their property (aka their servers) than one entity be able to dictate to the entirety of lemmy.
If I set up a server my instance will have my rules. I won’t allow NSFW nor will I allow any hate speech or promotion of extremist views such as nazism, fascism, imperialism, anything encouraging violence or threats, religious extremist beliefs such as sharia law and fundamental Christianity etc.
I would not federate with any instances that break MY rules. That’s why it’s my instance. I made it, maintain it. My interest isn’t getting as many people on my instance as possible but to give a space for people who want to participate on that kind of instance. Some instances will focus on hating LGBT and being sexist etc and while that’s horrific they’re allowed to do whatever as long as it doesn’t break lemmy TOS which i honestly don’t know what it is. Anyway, it’s weird to see anyone label freedom to do what one wants with their property as being dictators.
There is no lemmy TOS by the way. There is no central authority to all of this. Much like real life, people tend to stay away from the weirdos and in the fediverse they just defederate from a group of weirdos if it becomes too bad.
But to be honest, defederation is an absolutely minor inconvenience. Most important instance will of course cooperate and have similar rules. It’s just that we are on a very young platform right now and the moderation tools are not as advanced as elsewhere. Currently, defederation is just a temporary band-aid solution to make the admin’s lifes easier. It’ll get better and sort itself out over time.
If you like spreading hate, you will of course always have a problem with defederation. You likely won’t be able to participate in normal discussions on normal instances as well as vile portrayals of humanities’ worst with the same account. But that’s not a new concept. People have had two accounts for normal discussion and things like NSFW subs before.
The problem is that defederation is that it causes damage to the wider network, and can be far too easily abused.
It makes instance selection very important to the user (which is already a major friction point). And causes terrible UX when users can’t figure out why content is unavailable to them.
It can also be used as a weapon by powerhungry admins to force centralization around their instance.
I know there aren’t really great alternatives to defederation for content moderation right now. But I think that these could easily be implemented. For example, instances could maintain a ‘blocklist’ which users could automatically be subscribed to upon joining, but they would be able to inspect and ‘opt-out’ from blocking certain instances or categories if they desired.
I think this is a good balance of protecting users, and also respecting their freedom.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean they could POST rule breaking content. (They are still users of your instance after all). Just that they would have the choice of which content they feel comfortable with VIEWING.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. And defederation is a nuclear powered sledgehammer lol.
there is no “lemmy TOS”. lemmy is only a piece of software that can be ran on a server. it is licensed under the GNU Affero GPL, a copyleft free software license.
this means that pretty much the only legal “terms” you need to abide to run the software on a server is that if you modify it in any way, you have to publish the source code so that others can freely read and modify your version, the way you read and modified the original (this is what copyleft means; it’s the exact opposite of copyright).
the instance owner is the only one providing any “service” here, and as such they decide their terms (the site-wide rules for an instance). if you run your own instance on your own server, you are the only one who can dictate any “terms of service”.
all of this is by design; the fediverse would be pretty useless if anyone could impose a global “terms of service” over it.
You and me both. Presumably a lot of others as well.
Feels like Lemmy is going to shoot itself in the foot with this.
Yep, I feel the same way. Feels like I’m missing out on a bunch of stuff.
thankfully, that isn’t really the case on your (which also happens to be my) instance.
we’ve been blocked by precisely one actual instance - the predominantly German-speaking feddit.de, for having open signups, which i’m sure is something we could hash out with them in the future. (technically there are also instances that block us which are run by single persons for their own use. in effect, this amounts to a single user blocking us for themselves, which obviously is fine).
we ourselves have defederated from precisely one instance - lemmygrad.ml, the political one for authoritarian communists. this was probably done to avoid unpleasant political spam posts from showing up. personally, i think we could get rid of even this one block as the users can decide whether to block that instance for themselves or not; i might post asking about it later.
and most importantly, the admins here have explicitly stated that the policy is to avoid defederation at all possible avenues. this statement more than anything really made me feel like i chose the right instance.
FMHY for the win!
we’ve been blocked by precisely one actual instance - the predominantly German-speaking feddit.de
Which also was my first home instance until I noticed that a comment chain I accidentaly started using another lemmy instance was not visible when looking at the thread though feddit. Not even my own comments made with an instance that wasn’t blocked. Turns out the user I answered to start that chain was a member of your instance and thus the comment and everything following it was not visible for feddit users.
Which is why I’m a full time lemm.ee user for now bc at the time it had 0 blocked instances and was blocked by 0 too^^
and most importantly, the admins here have explicitly stated that the policy is to avoid defederation at all possible avenues.
That’s the policy of lemm.ee too. It has 34 blocked instances right now but those are all suspicious ones that formed and got >30K users within a couple hours and no activity at all.
But ultimately, new users shouldn’t have to worry about such things, which is why I can’t see Lemmy growing as a whole with the tools available now.
Everywhere it says it’s not relevant where you sign up because you can see all the stuff from other instances anyway, but that’s simply not true, it DOES matter where you sign up and even after that you could be forced to change your instance when the defederation roulette starts spinning again.
and most importantly, the admins here have explicitly stated that the policy is to avoid defederation at all possible avenues.
I don’t know how any of this works either, but I’m hoping for a solution that makes it harder for owners of large instances throwing their weight around to affect the users so drastically.
Something I can imagine would be the ability to be logged in to multiple accounts at once, so a user could see and interact with multiple unlinked instances seamlessly. Commenting or posting in a community would default to either an account made in that communities instance, or the next available account in a linked instance.
I think this is sort of how it works now, we’re just missing the ability to make the experience seamless.
Yep, this exact situation is why this whole federation thing is never ever going to catch on as much as Digg and Reddit did. I’m all for a good Reddit alternative but I really don’t think this will be it.
The history of the fediverse has been paved with comments like this. Many thought lemmy would never be as populated as it is right now.
Truth is broad unsubstantiated critiques are easy to make. Constructive criticism harder. Actually trying to make things better even harder.
How much is your critique just “I don’t like a loss of some convenience even if it is the trade off for choice, diversity and non-profit corporatisation of my online social life”?
People in this thread look like they never mada a mistake doing something for the first time.
You are all perfect, but our admins are awful.
They also don’t have experience in running this federation thing like we don’t have in using it.
This is all in R&D mode, both for code and for running community.
Express your opinions, since that is the only way things can change, but have some understanding for people running the show.
People in this thread look like they never mada a mistake doing something for the first time.
I mean 90% of this community is now Redditors so are you really surprised with the attitude?
thank god someone else is finding humor in this too. i laughed at the sheer absurdity of half the comments in that thread. people can really easily lose all sense of proportion
https://lemmy.fmhy.ml/post/265796
here you go, keep in mind that it’s 2 days old so probably best not to comment on it and shake up a pot that’s now settled. just sit back, read and laugh instead
(wish i could give you a properly formatted link that would load the post in your instance instead of booting you off-site, but as of now i don’t think there’s syntax that lets you share proper links to posts, like there is with communities. does each instance just number every post on the network by itself? so far that’s what it’s been looking like to me)
heh, just realised i said “thank god someone is finding humor in this” and you, the someone in question, are literally called “god” :)
I’m out of the loop, what happened?!
One person created the_donald over there and people are getting butthurt.
There’s no real drama. Beehaw is defederating from some instances with shitty communities. That’s all.
I don’t understand people who want this to be another reddit. Reddit was awful lmao
IMHO, the big problem is that defederating causes a bunch of problems when you’re cutting ties with an instance that is 99.9% good actors.
Sure, you cut out the trolls, but you also totally fuck up the user experience for the vast majority of well intentioned people.
Example, I’m on Lemmy.world, and my wife is on beehaw. We often both comment to a Lemmy.ml community, and neither of us can see each others comments even though Lemmy.ml is neutral ground.
Aren’t they de-federating (fuck the English language) over the_Donald joining the instance?
It was banned as soon as the admin realized it even existed lmao. There was just one dude posting there and it was terrible quality so no one even cared.
But everyone made such a fuss that the dude is practically now the entire branch of Nazism of Lemmy or something according to the proponents of defederation.
Hey jas sh.itjust.works actually been defederated with many major instances yet or are there just murmurs? I’m confused what happens because I’m on lemmy.ml and I still see sh.itjust.works content, but then I’m actively subscribed to some communities there. My understanding with defederation is that you no longer see anything from a given instance in the “all” section vs the “local” section (where you only have seen stuff from your home instance anyway). That makes sense, but what about my subscriptions. If I’m actively subscribed do I still get content from defederated instances or is that all just gone?
No no, nothing happened. It was all angry discussion by crowds who didn’t know anything. The problems were solved very fast and no one ended up unhappy except for the troll.
It sucks because Sh.itjustworks is generally a pretty good place, people trying some good things like the Agora. Then I take a look a few minutes later and it’s like the Donald Glover pizza meme all over again.
If I’m actively subscribed do I still get the content […]?
No, the whole point of defed is that your home instance stops “listening” to the updates of the defederated instance. So you’d stop getting updates from any community hosted on @sh.itjust.works period.
