Last time I called Rittenhouse a murderer here, one of his inbred cult wanted to argue. Let’s see if that happens again:
Kyle Rittenhouse is a murderer.
Kyle Rittenhouse is a murderer.
Who is Kyle? Did you mean Kyla?
Sorry, I will show myself out.
“Kyla” sounds like “killer” (i.e., murderer); the only misgendering here is in your head.
The wiki article that covers the events of that night is a excellent resource.
Nothing wrong with being transgender. Find an insult that you aren’t borrowing from the far-right.
Don’t use bigoted slurs or marginalized groups as an insult, but absolutely use their other insults against them. In their minds those are the worst things you can call someone, and to hear them used against “their side” drives them wild.
Call their favorite fascist a “degenerate”, “freak”, or “NPC” – their reactions are hilarious.
Edit:
If we can’t have a fact based conversation about anything then I don’t know what the point is. As a leftie this type of rhetoric really saddens me. I thought we were better than the Maga crowd.
Does every act of self defense automatically classify someone as a murderer?
BTW, for the record I’m a leftie progressive. I’m not a conservative and I hate the Maga crowd. But the events that led to the death of those people that day was due to self defense.
This has been established through clear video footage and a lengthy trial with a jury of his peers.
Anyone who disagrees needs to establish they know the facts of the matter beyond news headlines or Twitter opinions.
The problem with this country today is rampant misinformation.
Can you demonstrate why it wasn’t self defense?
Thanks for not repeating unverified social media talking points. I knew I could count on you for nuanced and intelligent discussion. You know, with misinformation being rampart it’s good to know people like you are around to definitely not propagate false talking points.
The user laid out an argument, a reasoning and asked you a question. All you can do is “LA LA LA” doesn’t fit my narrative and insult. Hmm reminds me of some people I know. At least tell them why you think what you think other than omg Rittenhouse bad.
And I am on rittenhouse’s side on this one. Simply because he has gone up against a jury of his peers and been found innocent. If we stop obeying the rule of law then we are no better than terrorists. Want the law to change? Vote, don’t insult your peers
If we can’t have a fact based conversation about anything then I don’t know what the point is. As a leftie this type of rhetoric really saddens me. I thought we were better than the Maga crowd.
This is the “The Civil War was about State’s Rights” argument and I need a meme of a duck saying “Why was Rittenhouse there in the first place?”
WHY WAS HE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?!
OJ Simpson also wasn’t convicted.
It seems kind of obvious Rittenhouse went looking for a situation he could put himself in so that he could shoot somebody. That’s murder if you can prove it, but good luck proving it.
That’s due to corrupt cops manipulating evidence. The judicial system acted accordingly when presented with the proof that the evidence could no longer be trusted.
OJ Simpson was different. The police borked that case to a mind blowing degree. Planting evidence, poor handling of evidence, police officers invoking the fifth on the witness stand, just so bad. The facts in Rittenhouse’s case were pretty well established, and the way the law applied left him in the clear. Now maybe the law should be different to deter vigilantes like Rittenhouse, but it was always likely to be a successful case of self-defense.
Well, yes. Rittenhouse inserted himself into a situation he had zero business being in, with a weapon he was legally not allowed to have, and those actions put him in the danger that he then, legally speaking, defended himself from.
He’s an idiot, a terrible person, and 100% at fault for what happened. But not a murderer since he was acquitted, and words mean things.
You idiots can downvote me until the end of time if doesn’t make me less correct
I’m a leftie progressive (…) But the events that led to the death of those people that day was due to self defense.
So you’re not a willfully blind idiot for party political reasons. I wonder what convinced you then…
This has been established through clear video footage and a lengthy trial with a jury of his peers
Ah, an ignorant faith in the veracity of doctored or otherwise misleading out of context footage and the integrity of the US legal system 🤦
Can you demonstrate why it wasn’t self defense?
Dude brought an AR-15 to a word fight. In another state. After telling friends that he wanted to shoot BLM protesters. He then harassed peaceful protesters until some of them tried to stop him. He then murdered the people trying to stop him.
As someone who followed the trial closely, the evidence couldn’t be more clear.
But if all you’re going to do is handwave it away because of conspiracies that
- The trial was rigged
- The video was doctored
Then I don’t know what to discuss. This rhetoric identical with Maga republicans that claim the election was stolen and Hillary Clinton is harvesting the endocrine glands of children.
If we can’t have a fact based conversation about anything then I don’t know what the point is. As a leftie this type of rhetoric really saddens me. I thought we were better than the Maga crowd.
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It wasn’t a word fight, both sides had devolved to rioting by this point.
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It was his home state through his father.
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No records show him harassing “peaceful” protesters, but the first man that was shot’s girlfriend testified he had reached for Rittenhouses weapon, the second guy was attempting to knock him over with a scateboard, and the third guy was pointing a gun at him.
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It was self defense according to the law, which we can argue is or is not murder, in which case even if it is self defense is a good thing.
Intent: They drove like over an hour across state lines to Kenosha in hopes of finding somebody to kill then placed himself in harms way by wandering into a group of people.
The goal was always to kill people and thats what makes it murder.
the goal was always to kill people
This is the crux. This mens rea was not proven. And the fact that he waited long after he was chased and pinned to the ground before he started firing is critical to this injunction.
People on this board automatically assume that because I’m defending the non guilty verdict I’m automatically absolving Kyle Rittenhouse of all culpability. The kid was an idiot that made some very bad decisions that will likely haunt him the rest of his life. He was 17 and should have known better. He’s not completely innocent in my book. I just love how nuanced and wonderfully fact-based Lemmy is when it comes to these charged topics. It’s so refreshing.
Has it been proven that he was hoping to kill somebody when he drove across state lines?
Regarding victim number one. Bringing a gun to a protest and starting shit then shooting people doesn’t constitute self defense because you normally can’t provoke the situation you are defending yourself from. Also the only thing that made the situation deadly dangerous was literally the gun in his hand if not for that it would have been a fist fight at worst. More likely absent a weapon to give him courage he just wouldn’t have started shit.
Regarding victims 2 and 3 they were trying to stop what they correctly perceived as an active shooter they did not pursue lethal force against him he could have surrendered the gun non-violently. You normally have a legal obligation to use the lease force possible.
The law being what it is guilt or innocence it a fight is often questionable and subject to state specific laws but morally speaking I don’t understand why anyone would not hold him responsible for what happened. He is by all accounts a garbage human being and people are dead because he is a garbage human being.
Here is what one of the people who helped him win his legal case said
We invested significant effort to craft the image you witnessed during the trial. We outfitted him in new suits, arranged for his haircut every weekend during the trial, and dedicated over 200 hours to prepare him for direct and cross-examination. We employed the world’s leading jury consultant and conducted extensive research through three mock trials to identify the ideal jurors and the most effective approach for his testimony.
Transforming a middle school dropout who was “angry at the world” with a history of violence and an unhealthy obsession with guns and killing into a respectable young man with a desire for higher education and a promising future was no easy feat.
It was a meticulously crafted facade, which we sincerely hoped he would grow into. Instead, he squandered a full scholarship to study any subject at any university in the country to become a divisive douchebag and antagonize black Americans on college campuses. Kyle failed to learn a single thing. He remains the same uneducated, arrogant, and antagonistic individual, incapable of telling the truth.
Now, he genuinely believes he is the show pony we created and has surrounded himself with sycophants who fuel his inflated ego because they prioritize their political agenda and Christian Nationalist worldview over his well-being.
Despite my efforts to guide him toward a better path in life, the allure of notoriety triumphed over the prospect of putting in the hard work of pursuing an education. I regret my role in shaping him into whatever he has become. If I had known what I know now about Kyle’s History, I wouldn’t have been involved.
He’s also a moron. He obtained his high school diploma by cheating on online tests and then went to take the ASVAB and managed to score a 10, a typical average score for a high school graduate is 50, the minimum you can get into the military is 30. We are talking about questions like
If there are three quarts of gas in a gallon container, how full is the container? 50% 60% 75% 80%
I don’t even know how its possible to score a 10
You’re missing some context. I think I would agree with your take if not for the fact that:
the only thing that made the situation deadly dangerous was literally the gun in his hand
I can’t recall if it was indv 1 or 3 but one of them brandishes a skateboard towards his head. A skateboard can easily be a lethal blow to the head.
a fist fight at worst
See above. Also 4v1.
anyone would not hold him responsible for what happened
I actually agree with this. He is culpable of fomenting the situation. A 17 year old with an AR 15 had no business being there.
He’s also a moron
Totally agree.
as a leftie
Real I’m a black gay guy vibes here.
Show us your leftie registration papers please.
Here’s the thing: If I don’t include that I’m a leftie I spend the whole time defending why i’m not a conservative and never actually discussing the topic.
If I mention that I’m a leftie that disagrees with the main take: I spend the whole time defending why im not a conservative and never discussing the topic.
NO ONE ENGAGES WITH THE SUBSTANCE OF THE DISCUSSION
It’s damned if I do damned if don’t. This is cult behavior. If you disagree with my position, refute my position or provide an argument. There is no grace or charitability offered. Like, why?
So many people on this platform spend all their energy in labeling but never discussing the actual points.
Let’s say a person doesn’t like certain other types of people (be it due to race, religion, political views, or whatever), and that person also glorifies violence against those types of people and they glorify gun violence in general.
Let’s also say this person knowingly and willingly (and possibly illegally) puts themselves in harm’s way, while carrying a gun, amongst those same certain types of people.
Then they get into a situation where they have to use “self defense” in order to escape harm from those people. Luckily they had that gun with them!
Was it legally “self defense?” Yes, apparently. Could it be argued that it was also “hunting” disliked group of people, as if for sport? Yes.
Did Rittenhouse successfully use a self defense plea to get away with murder? Some would argue that he did.
I agree with your take for the most part actually. This is the kindest response I’ve gotten on Lemmy in the past year since this topic gets brought up.
Could it be argued that it was also “hunting” disliked group of people, as if for sport? Yes
He was 17. This fact could easily be argued the other way. In the days preceding the Kenosha riots there were riots in Minneapolis were stores were looted and some buildings burned. About a 1bn in damage happened. Kenosha is a small town where Kyle worked. Could it be he was also concerned about the place his father lived and where he worked?
Also, just because he received a non-guilty verdict I will be the first to say that doesn’t absolve him of culpability in developing a situation that led to harm. As a European that lived in America briefly (ten years) I was very shocked when I encountered the gun culture there. I understand it but I never got comfortable with it.
Thank you again for not resorting to labeling me or putting me down. Gives me a little hope for Lemmy.
In that instance the “protesters” create their own bad luck by putting themselves in a situation where self defense rules apply. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
Does every act of self defense automatically classify someone as a murderer?
By definition, murder is the unjustified killing of a human. This is why homicide is the preferred term, with murder, if it’s mentioned at all, is a particularly egregious form of homicide.
But the events that led to the death of those people that day was due to self defense.
Nope. He sought that conflict out. The verdict aside, the chain of events leading to that conflict lead to him being there, being in that confrontation, and willfully engaging in that confrontation.
They did NOT establish definitively that it was self defense.
The verdict established that the murders were not premeditated, which they weren’t.
For the charge of 1st degree murder the prosecution had to prove premeditation which they were unable to do, hence the not guilty.
For some inexplicable reason, the prosecution failed to also charge 2nd degree, which would have likely received a guilty verdict.
Please note the distinction: while the defense certainly argued self defense, the not guilty verdict does not prove the defense theory to be correct, it simply proves the prosecution did not meet their burden of proof regarding premeditation, nothing more.
In the US legal system, people are not proclaimed innocent, they are found to be guilty or not guilty. Not guilty of one particular charge does not mean that the defendant is innocent of all crimes.
I watched the entire trial.
Yes. thank you. I agree with your take for the most part.
I’ve spent the whole thread defending how left I am so I’m out of energy to offer a more complete response. I have some thoughts but maybe I’ll come back later.
Thanks anyway.
Cheers.
If you had asked an NRA-affiliated self defense instructor in 2019 if what Rittenhouse did was self defense, they would have told you unequivocally no.
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He was chased by 4 individuals
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He was pinned to the ground
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He fired a warning shot
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Indv 1 tried to grab his gun.
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Indv 2 tried to hit him with a skateboard.
At what point do we allow for self-defense?
- To be clear: he should never have been there in the first place. A 17 year old with a gun has no business patrolling a riot with an AR-15. This was a horrible situation that one could be argued he provoked.
“Can you demonstrate why it wasn’t self defense?”
That, alone, is super easy for anyone familiar with how self defense works.
Source: I have a permit to carry concealed in my state and passed an instructional course to be able to do so.
One of the very first things you learn about self defense is that you cannot initiate a conflict and then later claim self defense.
Rittenhouse was safe. He was in another state, 20 miles from the conflict, and chose to endanger himself by bringing a weapon into an area of unrest.
At that point, self defense should have been off the table. He chose to engage, that’s not self defense.
Thank you. This is a reasonable take I can actually agree with to some extent and I think gives me a different perspective, albeit it goes beyond the legal framework. I’ve also heard this argument before and I’m torn on this.
I’m curious: what is your stance on the Korean rooftop shooters during the LA riots?
Does every act of self defense automatically classify someone as a murderer?
No. Acts of self defense happen every day, and the vast majority do not have people calling them a murder.
This is an incredibly disingenuous statement that is ignoring the facts around this specific case of self defense.
BTW, for the record I’m a leftie progressive.
Irrelevant. Ad hominem. Whether or not you’re a leftie has no effect on the strength of the argument you are presenting.
the events that led to the death of those people that day was due to self defense.
Rittenhouse did manage to engineer a situation in which everyone involved had a credible claim of self defense. I will point out however that one of “the events that led to the death of those people that day” was Rittenhouse deciding to go to a town he had no good reason to be with the stated goal of “protecting property”.
If a criminal breaks into someone’s house and the owner charges at them with a baseball bat the criminal is “acting on self defense” if they shoot the owner. The criminal still shouldn’t have been there in the first place and the entire situation is the criminal’s fault.
Now replace the criminal with someone who had a grudge against the owner, and broke in hoping this would be the outcome. The legal system would only find them guilty of breaking and entering, but that person is a murderer.
Anyone who disagrees needs to establish they know the facts
The fact of the matter is Rittenhouse’s stated reason for being there with a gun in the first place was to “protect property” from people who were protesting the murder of George Floyd. Because in his mind it is acceptable to shoot people to protect property, it is not acceptable to damage property to protect lives.
Can you demonstrate why it wasn’t self defense?
It’s both.
Yes, legally Rittenhouse was acting in self defense. He is also a murder who went there with the hope of being able to insert himself into a situation where he could kill someone.
Can you demonstrate why it wasn’t self defense?
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Sure, legally it was self defense. My read of the situation is that he clearly went looking for trouble with his shiny new AR, exactly as he’d expressed a desire to do.
He found the trouble he was looking for, and to his immense luck he not only managed to fight his way free of it, but managed to do so in a way that legally qualified as self defense, and also gave us this laughable performance to roll our eyes at.
Legally, self defense. In my opinion he went there to murder, he just didn’t know who it would be or whether he’d get his chance.
Does every act of self defense automatically classify someone as a murderer?
Depends on whether or not somebody was killed and whether or not you’re using the word “murderer” in its technical legal sense.
BTW, for the record I’m a leftie progressive.
Why bring that up? Your argument should be able to stand on its own. Am I supposed to say, “Oh, I didn’t agree with your argument before, but now that I know you’re on the same team I’m on, I can see it in a completely different light now!” GTFO.
He’s definitely a murderer, so that’s a thing.
He was literally acquitted by a jury of his peers of murder. Regardless of how you feel about it, it’s shocking that one would be surprised some people think he isn’t guilty.
He wasn’t charged correctly.
Had he been charged with 2nd degree murder he would have been convicted.
All of his shootings were legally self defense, and based on the evidence presented at trial the jury absolutely decided his case correctly. Grosskreutz will have a hard fight in his civil suit against Rittenhouse after admitting on the stand that he pointed his gun at Rittenhouse before Rittenhouse shot him. He might actually have an easier time against the city, county and police for not having sufficient police response to the previous shots fired.
Rittenhouse was also a complete and total idiot for being there in the first place, even more so for separating from his group, and he hasn’t demonstrated substantially better judgement any time since. Because he’s immensely, painfully stupid.
The only thing I don’t really get is why everyone seems so damned intent about spending time, attention and effort talking about him in the first place, regardless of what political side you’re on. I mean it’s weird they treated him like some kind of aspirational figure, it’s even more weird that they’re now accusing him of being trans as though that changes the value of anything he’s said before or since. But we really, really don’t need to give him any more of a spotlight than he already has.
All of his shootings were legally self defense
Not quite… The jury’s decision simply indicated that the prosecution did not meet their burden of proof, not that the defense’s position was accepted as fact. This is an important distinction.
… at trial the jury absolutely decided his case correctly.
Agreed, but keep in mind he was found to be not guilty, which is not the same thing as innocent.
Because he’s immensely, painfully stupid.
Immensely, painfully, and dangerously stupid.
But we really, really don’t need to give him any more of a spotlight than he already has.
Fair enough, but I think that this case should be taught in law school as an example of prosecutorial negligence in that if he were simply charged appropriately, 2nd degree non premeditated and/or manslaughter, he would be in prison now for a minimum of 15 years but probably closer to 25 years.
The choice to only charge 1st degree, which took on the burden of proving premeditation, was the biggest legal blunder of our time… worse than Alex Jones’s lawyer sending the full cell phone copy to the prosecutor, which was an absolute joy to watch live as it happened.
Fair enough, but I think that this case should be taught in law school as an example of prosecutorial negligence in that if he were simply charged appropriately, 2nd degree non premeditated and/or manslaughter, he would be in prison now for a minimum of 15 years but probably closer to 25 years.
The choice to only charge 1st degree, which took on the burden of proving premeditation, was the biggest legal blunder of our time… worse than Alex Jones’s lawyer sending the full cell phone copy to the prosecutor, which was an absolute joy to watch live as it happened.
You think? His defense was a pretty standard self defense argument. Or does having shown up to the general area at all remove his ability to claim self defense under those charges?
This is honest to god the funniest thing happening in the Magaverse right now. It’s like they got their marching orders mixed up and their daily five minutes of hate that were supposed to be directed at Imane Khelif got swapped for Kyle Rittenhouse at the last minute and nobody questions the logic of it.
Conservatives last week: “Kyle Rittenhouse was acting in self-defense and should be applauded for protecting the white race from BLM violence.”
Conservatives this week: “Kyle Rittenhouse is just one more example of the extremist violence in the LGBTQ community.”
Wow they turned on him even quicker than I would have expected. If he’d showed a hint of spine and didn’t cave immediately it might have infinitesimally moved my respect for him above 0.
The kid will make the right choice on something one day. Or he won’t. Meh.
He had a bunch of what I’m assuming were paid appearances canceled immediately.
Since he didn’t finish high school and turned down college scholarships, it was pretty easy to bring him to heel.
This piece of shit swirled himself to all the other pieces of shit, then forgot he was also shit in the shit stew.
