So if it was written by a PoC you would build your whole personality around hating it?
Funny thing is that with Vader it’s not even in an indirect sense.
Mans absolutely could have canonically killed millions with his own two hands,
He got surrounded after crash landing on a dessert planet and the dude looks around and tells the commander calling for his surrender is “All I am surrounded by is fear, and dead men.”
IDK how they’d fare against each other in a fight, but Vader is definitely putting in the work to compete on Kharne the Betrayer’s million+ kill count, which we can only guess from that being how many people he’s killed that he was in control of himself enough to retrieve their skulls to offer to Khorne.
The weird thing about the sequels is the weird amount of people coping and saying they’re not that bad. It’s literally bad fanfiction written by people who couldn’t care less about the franchise.
I was a kid when the prequels came out and loved them despite how they were poorly recieved by old fans.
Maybe these people who like the sequels are kids/teens.
I was 20 when TPM released and not a single person I knew liked it. It is still the most disappointing part of the franchise for me with ep2 being a close second. Ep3 was an improvement but still just ok.
Now I see people in their 20s and early 30s that live the prequels and it’s just strange to me. They’re no better than the sequels (and worse in some ways) so I really don’t understand people that enjoy them while crapping all over the newer films.
The prequels had a good story told incredibly poorly while the sequels have a bad story but at least it is told well (or at least better) and neither of those are recipes for a good film.
I liked TPM, except for the scenes with Anakin. I just hated how he was written, and the acting didn’t help. Huuuuuuge crush on Natalie Portman though
I was also 20 when TPM was released. I hated everything about it at first. Then a couple years later when RLM made their review of the trilogy, it gave my thoughts new form, and I had to realize that what the prequels did well was establish a lot of lore and world building, which made TCW possible. Unlike most of the badly written EU books, it dared to deviate from X-Wings & TIEs, Han Solo and even the mysteries of the force. Even if we have forgotten gems like force speed, never to be used again.
And TCW is the bomb.
The prequels had a good story told incredibly poorly
This is redeemable, fun to read about extra info on wookiepedia, and fun to rewatch in whole context of that good story.
while the sequels have a bad story but at least it is told well (or at least better)
This is not redeemable, adds nonsense and contradictions to wookiepedia, and why bother rewatching a bad story at all? But hey, at least the acting is good and special effects are pretty!..?
I actually really liked Last Jedi on its own and consider it in the top half of my ranking of the franchise. I think Luke’s characterization could’ve been handled better (and the whole Canto Bight subplot could’ve been cut wholesale) but looking at myself at 23 (how old Luke was in RotJ) and my experiences since, I found the lapse of judgement and faded optimism quite relatable. Adam Driver is one of my favorite actors and his portrayal of an abusive yet charismatic antagonist turned love interest was spot-on. There’s also the comparisons you could make between the First Order and the rise of fascism in America today. That one’s a bit of a stretch but it’s important to recognize World War II’s influence on the original trilogy and the Iraq War’s on the prequels.
That said, Rise of Skywalker is not only the worst Star Wars film- I consider it the worst film I’ve ever watched. It’s not a poorly-made film, the cinematography is great, but the plot is nonsensical. It redacts everything they set up in the Last Jedi, retroactively making that one worse than it is standalone. What seals it though is this will always be the ending of the saga- they can’t go back and fix it. I’ve probably seen worse movies, but the disappointment will never reach the level that this one gives me.
Last Jedi was a good movie but it wasn’t a good Star Wars.
Technically it is very good, the director is great and made some brilliant stuff like knives out and tlj certainly isn’t a boring watch.
7th was a mediocre ok movie and ok Star Wars. 9th was neither. Their stories don’t form cohesive whole.
To be honest nowadays I only like 4k77-83. Prequels are just cringe as an adult. At least we can all agree I think that the acolyte was some forgettable misunderstanding. I watched house of the dragon right after acolyte and I couldn’t believe how much much better the dragon show is. 180 milion dollars. I only remember I watched it but not a single scene made me feel anything
To be fair, if you look at the original movies, most of the universe info is not contained therein.
There are books. You can, for example, pluck a trilogy on Han Solo’s backstory off the shelf at Barnes & Noble. You could do that 15-20 years ago. The books are all written by an array of different authors though they all take place within the Star Wars universe. What is that if not professionally written fan fiction?
FF isn’t my thing, I’m not endorsing it, just stating what I encountered when I tried to read a book or two engaging the Star Wars universe in the past.
They all had a stamp of approval from George Lucas though. Once Disney bought the franchise they said fuck all that and made it “not cannon”.
I just wanted a fun star wars movie and every single one felt like it was star wars. Sure the plot sucked but I still enjoyed watching them.
I’m going to be honest, I truly think there’s more value to be able to enjoy things freely in life. People who find delight easily aren’t as foolish as you’d think. When I’m salty, those are the people I find myself envying. I’m the one who feels like an idiot when I notice.
I would rather hang out with someone that allows themselves to feel joy in silly things rather than one who has no patience for mediocrity.
I care. New Futurama seems different. I’ve seen all episodes and movies prior to 2023 at least 20 times a piece. At very least. The pre-2023 episodes are definitely all over the place in terms of quality too, don’t get me wrong. I really tried to keep an open mind but the new Hulu stuff seems different.
I mean, it’s not cope, I just like 7 and 8. I’m not a huge Star Wars fan, I’m not out to change anyone’s mind, I just liked the movies as a fun adventure with some good themes. I didn’t like 9 because my favorite part of 7 and 8 was the idea that you don’t have to be from some powerful family to be a hero (something that was better executed in Knives Out), but 9 really threw all that away.
Luke has gone full Jedi.
Nah, man. The scene people whine about is the equivalent of Luke wailing on Vader, getting that sweet, sweet hand vengeance, and then stopping to think about what it all means. In TLJ it’s just compressed into like 3 seconds. In-universe, it’s bad luck. In narrative terms, Ben was in a different point on his character arc.
I love The Last Jedi. It twisted ESB just enough not to be a carbon copy, it eliminated a very boring villain in a surprising way, it made the seductive power of the dark side seem almost plausible (one of a smallish number of things The Acolyte actually did pretty well), actually engaged with the prequels in a substantive and respectful way, and left things open ended enough that Episode 9 could have been really interesting. Yoda’s appearance and interaction with Luke was amazing. That opening scene with Rose’s sister in the bomber was extremely moving for how little we knew, a “tone poem” if you will.
On the negative side, Finn’s arc was too subtly different from his Ep7 arc to make much difference. The logistics of the slow speed chase were a bit strained. We as the audience could have been clued into Holdo earlier than Poe was. The “your mom” joke didn’t land. The pacing (and I maintain pretty much only the pacing) of Canto Bight was weak. Then, it could have used a line or two of handwavium at various points to keep the Ackshully’s at bay: “The Raddus’ navicomputer locked onto the hyperdrive tracker.” Boom! Two birds with one stone.
It was still by far the best of the sequels and I’ll live and die on the hill that they’re all (yes, even THAT one) easier to watch than the acting and directing shitshow that was the prequels.
I’m with you 100% on everything you wrote here and I’ve had this argument with my brother countless times. He blames Rian Johnson for everything bad about the sequels and it’s bs.
Personally I think the biggest thing TLJ suffered from was the split focus between Poe and Finn. It made both stories rushed or weak in various places.
And for that I blame Disney. Did you know that Poe wasn’t even supposed to be a big character? He was supposed to be in the first scene of Ep7 and that’s it. But execs saw his performance and insisted they needed his character to play a bigger role. As such, we get attention split between Poe and Finn and both suffer for it.
I feel awful for John Boyega who was such a massive Star Wars fan, got the role of his dreams, and then effectively got sidelined for a pretty-boy.
If only Rian Johnson hasn’t sidelined Finn, yet another way he fucked up TLJ
To my knowledge it wasn’t his decision. It was Kathleen Kennedy. Poe was a favorite among kids and helped sell a boatload of X-Wing toys. He was seen as the “Han Solo of the sequels” and Disney execs all but forced Rian to give him screen time. They couldn’t really reduce Rey’s role so Finn got screwed
Nah, man. The scene people whine about is the equivalent of Luke wailing on Vader, getting that sweet, sweet hand vengeance, and then stopping to think about what it all means. In TLJ it’s just compressed into like 3 seconds. In-universe, it’s bad luck. In narrative terms, Ben was in a different point on his character arc.
If they had chosen to show the dreams, Luke struggling with it for ages and that scene as a last resort failure I could agree with you. Like he wake up everyday and each day he go closer to Kylo’s bed, the scene could be awesome. In the movie looks like the little shit Luke became a weak mind Jedi.
Nah, man. The scene people whine about is the equivalent of Luke wailing on Vader, getting that sweet, sweet hand vengeance, and then stopping to think about what it all means. In TLJ it’s just compressed into like 3 seconds. In-universe, it’s bad luck. In narrative terms, Ben was in a different point on his character arc.
If it worked for you, more power to you, I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind on this. But I can’t help myself when I see the apologetics for the “Luke ignited his light saber over a bad premonition scene”.
It’s not just “bad luck”, it’s bad writing. Luke didn’t just “wail on Vader” to get that “sweet hand vengeance”. He initially turned himself in believing he could convert his father back to the light. He only attacked after extreme emotional manipulation from one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, during an active battle to determine the fate of all his friends, all they fought for, and the literal freedom of the Galaxy. That is a far reach from a moment of pure safety where he had a bad premonition and the “threat” was sleeping.
The whole explanation of this scene (and by extension the plot point that the core of the ST hinges on) assumes Luke not only learned nothing from successfully turning Vader back to the light, but actively learned the opposite lesson.
I get that people can change over time, and not always for the better, but this is just hands down terrible character writing. Making such drastic changes in such an iconic character, without spending any time developing those changes, having those changes be directly counter to the lessons the character supposedly learned during his primary arc, and then using this unexplained change as the catalyst to the entire ST is awful writing.
And we are not even touching on his new found love of “THE SACRED TEXTS!”, or how he completely gives up and goes hermit mode.
I’ll give Rian credit for actually trying to innovate when it was his turn at bat, but his handling of Luke was honestly some of the most egregious examples of not understanding the characters you are writing, and having them pick up the idiot stick just to move the plot forward.
I think the main issue is that Rian had to cover for the hermit Luke set up in the previous movie, which he did not write.
Nah the hermit Luke in the episode 7 uses white clothes like a hopeful figure. In the 8 he uses it for 1s, throws the lightsaber and promptly walks to a tree and changes into a grey miserable figure. Rian chooses it.
The whole explanation of this scene (and by extension the plot point that the core of the ST hinges on) assumes Luke not only learned nothing from successfully turning Vader back to the light, but actively learned the opposite lesson.
This really pisses me off and Disney have to carry that shit.
The jedi of the prequel/originals are wrong about emotions/feelings and Lukes prove then wrong when he saves Anakin. But because of this fuck up writing now Lukes is a dumb removed who got luck in the originals and is doomed to failed like the others jedis. We already saw that in the Boba Fett series when he gives up on Grogu because “too much attachment” come on dude.
It’s not just “bad luck”, it’s bad writing. Luke didn’t just “wail on Vader” to get that “sweet hand vengeance”. He initially turned himself in believing he could convert his father back to the light. He only attacked after extreme emotional manipulation from one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, during an active battle to determine the fate of all his friends, all they fought for, and the literal freedom of the Galaxy. That is a far reach from a moment of pure safety where he had a bad premonition and the “threat” was sleeping.
In both cases, Luke was doing his calm thing, acting how he thought a Jedi should, and trying to do everything the right way. In both cases, the forces of darkness were pushing at him, and in both cases he comes close to giving in to save lives but stops himself. With Ben, or really with Palpatine/Snoke (still hate that this was the direction JJ went in TROS) the fear part only lasts for a moment, but with terrible consequences. Luke had mostly learned. He wasn’t the same person, but when confronted with the same pressures he’d struggled in the OT, he had a moment where it came close. I didn’t find it out of character at all, just a case of not becoming a magical, perfect person after your period of most intense growth.
I think there’s an argument that we simply shouldn’t bring back iconic, archetypal heroes like that, but once the choice is made, it’s deeply uninteresting to have to be saints. As a commentary on teaching and aging and how trying to live up to the legacy of the Jedi as he knew them, I thought TLJ Luke was solid.
The “sacred texts” showed us that he was never truly as disillusioned as he wanted to make out, and that there was still a kid somewhere inside that understood the power of legend and legacy, and it informed his decision to help how he did.
Different aspects of these movies hit people in different ways, and I’m not really thinking I’ll convince many people either, but I’ll push back on the notion that it was “just” bad writing. TLJ had a point of view and an agenda, and I came out of it refreshed and optimistic and was genuinely taken aback at the backlash.
Far be it from me to denounce some joy you found in the movie. We both obviosuly like StarWars (fellow geeks!), and if you liked TLJ’s take, you do you.
I agree whole heartedly that it would be uninteresting to make Luke “saint-like”. My issue isn’t with him having flaws and room for growth.
But I stand by the fact that his “mistake” in the ST runs directly contrary to the central theme of and lesson learned in his original arc. It may have been “in character” for ESB Luke, but by the end of RotJ, he had been shown that the goodness in a person can overcome the darkness, even in Vader.
And TLJ didn’t spend any time developing his actions, it just kinda said “well, his central arc wasn’t as impactful as it seemed”. Which I do believe is lazy/bad writing.
To blatantly plagerize Wikipedia.
A character arc is the transformation or inner journey of a character over the course of a story. If a story has a character arc, the character begins as one sort of person and gradually transforms into a different sort of person in response to changing developments in the story. Since the change is often substantive and leading from one personality trait to a diametrically opposite trait (for example, from greed to benevolence), the geometric term arc is often used to describe the sweeping change.
Luke’s arc saw him learn to see and believe in the godness inside people, even when no one else could. Better writing would have pushed into his transformation, or found a previously unexplored flaw to examine. Having characters need to learn the same lessons over and over again is not only frustrating, it’s lazy writing and poor character development.
To that point, I once heard a youtuber recommend an alternative reason for Luke’s fall that would have leaned into this defining characteristic. They suggested that Luke still get the premonition regarding Ben, but believe the goodness in Ben could overcome the darkness. When Ben inevitably falls to the darkside, this could cause Luke to have a crisis of faith, fundamentally putting the plot in the same spot as the beginning of TLJ, but in a way that played off of Luke’s defining moment, as opposed to grinding against it.
Now you would have had to explain Ben’s turn to the darkside, but I think “my uncle attacked me” is also kind of a weak reason to betray his parents anyway (and kill his father, and attempt to kill his mother). And also fails to address his weird obsession with Vader, like that was just kind of glossed over.
Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Agreed on TLJ, it was the only part of the new trilogy that dared do something different. It was quite flawed, but hey, it’s Star Wars.
People don’t remember how much backlash there was at even Empire Strikes Back! They said the story was incoherent. They even criticized the quintessential “I am your father” plot twist as being ridiculous (rightfully so). But that’s kind of what makes Star Wars what it is.
