Hi,
jlai.lu is the french instance of Lemmy, some user posted this thread 16 days ago : https://jlai.lu/post/11504685, and a flamewar ensued between hexbear and the french, e.g. between happybadger and their administrator here.
Since they didn’t really have any reason to defederate initially, they’re now adamant that they should defederate only because of this discussion, since it proved that every Hexbear&Lemmygrad user is agressive(, as if jlai.lu users weren’t agressive in this discussion as well).
I still find hard to believe that they could defederate on such weak basis, and it does feel like a convenient excuse, but that’s what they’re saying, ask them for confirmation if you don’t believe it either.
They also used a list of post found on /c/MeanwhileOnGrad@sh.itjust.works as if it was representative, but it hardly counts as an argument, what a stupid situation…
They’ve now pinned this post for 12 days, and the defederation with both Hexbear and Lemmygrad seems unavoidable.
I’ve known this for more than a week but didn’t care that much, yet when talking with them, and especially @Camus here, they/he said that they/he would like to talk to you. @Camus is very patient/nice, and you can look at his number of comments/posts to gauge his influence, probably their most active user(, kind of a french ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆).
Well, to be more precise, he informally asked for some excuses from Hexbear, but my post here didn’t reach them, perhaps because of “r*tard” in my username(, r*tardataire designate someone who’s late in french).
However, more than excuses in the name of others, you only have to show him that we’re not aggressive(, if you have some time, it won’t change much in the end), something very easy/natural to prove for >90% of Hexbear users(, and perhaps >70-80% of Lemmygrad 🙂, it does feel a bit more bitter/serious here, not a criticism).
They have some communities that aren’t that far apart from what could be found on Lemmygrad or Hexbear b.t.w., so it can’t really be said that they’d reject us solely based on terrorism apologia, supporting Stalin, etc.(, even if their “leftist” admin is against socialist countries because our capitalists said that they’re authoritarian).
Staying federated with a french instance would be useless for 99% of Hexbear and Lemmygrad, so if you intervene it’d mostly be on the behalf of current/future french users(, it can be nice sometimes to speak your native language without using an alt account), and perhaps also for Lemmygrad and Hexbear’s reputation on jlai.lu.
If you’re french, and/or simply nice, and want a chat with them, feel free to do so directly under the post or with @Camus.
(Kinda worth mentionning in passing that, currently, their top two posts of all time sorted by the most comments are the ones cited above about this defederation)
Also, keep in mind that this defederation is unavoidable though, if it doesn’t happen now it’ll be next year or the year after. As you know, reddit banned ChapoTrapHouse, GenZedong, etc., and we were quickly banned from lemmy.world and others, so we’ll one day be banned from other “centrist” instances such as the french one. Just like we’d also be banned/censored by our governement if our numbers grow enough to disturb/‘be a threat’.
Furthermore, Hexbear took action, and decided to defederate first without even trying to discuss more calmly. So don’t waste too much of your time either(, but please don’t go there unless you intent to speak calmly).
Thanks for reading :) !
I find domenico losurdo “class struggle” very relevant book explaining the behaviour of western leftists.
Chapter 4, section 2 titled “imperial socialism” explains how western leftists turn a blind eye and delegitimize oppressed nations liberation struggles because they directly benefit from it, these “socialists” would gladly provide loyalty to their regimes in exchange of concessions. Disraeli and Proudhon being prime examples of it.
Yes! The western labour aristocracy benefits way too much from imperialism to oppose it.
BTW Rockhill just edited a 2018 Losurdo book specifically about western marxism! He talks about it here, it’s super interesting and perfectly describes what we have seen from jlai.lu. (he shits on Zizek during the interview for extra cookie points)
The PDF version of the book is on ProleWiki already.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
For those interested : https://leftychan.net/leftypol/src/1622232510872-4.pdf
2 - ‘IMPERIAL SOCIALISM ’
Mutilation of class struggle can take another form : closing one’s eyes to the fate visited by capitalism on colonial peoples or peoples of colonial origin.
From the outset, calling attention to the ‘millions of workers’ forced to die in India, to allow capitalists to make modest concessions to British workers, Marx underlined the connection between the colonial question and the social question in the capitalist metropolis (see Chap. 2, Sect. 3). This was a demanding intellectual perspective.
In sharp contrast to Proudhon, Fourier was a champion of the cause of women’s emancipation. But it happened that, in the very years when Marx and Engels were expressing their hopes in the proletariat as the agency of universal emancipation with youthful hyperbole, followers of Fourier (and Saint-Simon) planned to construct communities of a more or less socialist kind in Algeria, on land taken from the Arabs in a brutal, sometimes genocidal war. 11
Later, utopian socialism mostly viewed the abolitionist movement with condescension or suspicion. After the February 1848 revolution, Victor Schoelcher and the new government proceeded to the definitive abolition of black slavery in French colonies, almost half a century after it had been reintroduced by Napoleon, who had thereby cancelled the results of the black revolution on Santo Domingo led by Toussaint L’Ouverture and the laws emancipating blacks enacted by the Jacobin Convention.
However, Etienne Cabet, an eminent representative of French utopian socialism, criticized Schoelcher for focusing on a narrow objective—the emancipation of black slaves—rather than committing himself to the universal emancipation of labour. 12
On the outbreak of the Civil War in the USA, Lassalle argued similarly, judging at least from a letter to Engels of 30 July 1862 in which Marx criticized the ‘antiquated, mouldering speculative rubbish’ of Lassalle, for whom the gigantic clash underway in the USA was ‘of no interest whatever’. Rather than developing positive ‘ideas’ for transforming society, ‘the Yankees’ confined themselves to mobilizing a ‘negative idea’ like ‘the freedom of the individual’. 13
For the two representatives of socialism cited here, commitment to the abolition of slavery in the colonies or the North American republic distracted attention from the social question, which remained a burning issue in the capitalist metropolis.
To the American Civil War—in Marx’s view, an epic event—Lassalle made only distracted, reductive references. Because of the blockade imposed by the Union on the secessionist South, and the consequent shortage of cotton for the textile industry of Britain, and Lancashire in particular, British workers were forced into unemployment and risked having to ‘emigrate to the colonies’. It was ‘one of the most bloody and horrible wars that history has ever seen’.
What was at stake in it was not touched upon. In fact, rather than the institution of slavery, Lassalle indicted ‘federalism’ and the self-government accorded states as allegedly responsible for the ‘absorption in particular interests’ and ‘mutual hatred’ of the contending parties, which were thus put on par. 14
The economistic or corporatist limitations of representatives of the labour and socialist movement were not unconnected with the initiative of the dominant classes, whose effectiveness was in fact underestimated by Marx and Engels. Having included ‘Young England’ in the ‘spectacle’ of ‘feudal socialism’ staged by ‘aristocrats’, the Communist Manifesto concluded: ‘the people, so often as it joined them, saw on their hindquarters the old feudal coats of arms, and deserted with loud and irreverent laughter’. 15
In fact, things turned out rather differently. The historically most important member of Young England was Disraeli. In him (as in the
organization he joined) are to be found elements of the transfiguration of the ancien régime, but he may be regarded as the inventor of a ‘socialism’ more appropriately defined as ‘imperial’ than ‘feudal’. Far from meeting with derision from the popular classes, this was socialism that often enchanted and ensnared them.
In the same years as The Holy Family and The German Ideology proclaimed the irreducible antagonism between proletariat and bourgeoisie, Disraeli published a novel that in its own way dealt with the same themes. We find a Chartist agitator bitterly challenging the existing order and denouncing the reality of the ‘two nations’ (‘rich and poor’) into which England is divided. In the Communist Manifesto, the Chartists are included among the ‘existing working-class parties’; 16 and the agitator seems to exhibit the revolutionary consciousness attributed to the proletariat by Marx and Engels. It is interesting to observe Disraeli’s response: it made no sense to speak of ‘two nations’; a bond of ‘fraternity’ now united ‘the privileged and prosperous English people’. 17
The key word is the one emphasized by me : the English aristocracy had shelved the caste, even racial arrogance it traditionally displayed towards the popular classes ; and now it was the ‘fraternal’ national English community as a whole that adopted a pose of supreme aristocratic disdain for other nations, especially colonial populations.
In other words, rather than disappearing, the racialization traditionally suffered by the British popular classes was displaced. It is no accident if Disraeli, who subsequently became the author of the Second Reform Act (which extended political rights beyond the circle of the aristocracy and the bourgeoisie), and of a series of social reforms, was simultaneously the champion of imperialism and the right of the ‘superior’ races to subjugate ‘inferior’ ones. In this way, the British statesman proposed to defuse the social question and class struggle in his own country : ‘I say with confidence that the great body of the working-class of England […] are English to the core. They are for maintaining the greatness of the Kingdom and the Empire, and they are proud of being subjects of our Sovereign and members of such an Empire.’ 18
These were the years when in France Proudhon adopted the position (according to Marx) of a ‘socialist of the Imperial period’—to be precise, the Second Empire. 19
Thus, we see a new political movement emerge. In the late nineteenth century, alluding to Napoleon III and Bismarck as well as Disraeli, a German observer spoke of an ‘imperialist social policy’ or ‘imperial socialism’ (Imperialsozialismus ). 20
Already brought out by Marx, the connection between the colonial question and the social question in the capitalist metropolis was recognized and put at the centre of a new political project, which proposed a kind of quid pro quo: the popular masses and proletariat were invited to respond to the dominant classes’ limited social reforms with patriotism and support for colonial expansionism.
I have to admit, I feel disappointed whenever this community attracts negative publicity and it has nothing to do with me, even if it is only somebody taking something that I said so blatantly out of context. For instance, I eventually retitled this thread because ‘economic boost’ sounded less incriminating than ‘boost to capitalism’ and after I published this reply, I realized that it sounded kind of mean, yet I was surprised that I was unable to find anybody talking about it.
tous les régimes ML et associés terminent de la même façon, défendus par des tankies prêts à excuser des génocides tout en écrasant n’importe quel mouvement demandant de l’indépendance et de l’autodétermination, quitte à s’associer avec des fascistes qui ont, in fine, le même but politique qu’eux.
This is basically just a minor variation on the trope that we merely hunger for power (rather than wanting the power to end hunger). I’ve been around the block enough times to know that there is no evidence that I could possibly provide that this anti-Bolshevik would not dismiss out of hand, though sometimes I do wonder… would a generic anticommunist ever have the patience and interest in at least reading one of my many threads on fascism? Since I recognize fascism as a manifestation of capitalism and anticommunism, I suspect that the answer is ‘no’.
It’s wild how much flak lemmygrad gets considering most threads here get single-digit likes and comments. Even if we stayed federated, they probably wouldn’t see posts from us unless they subscribed to genzedong or freechat. It makes me feel honored that we’re considered as much of a threat as hexbear hahaha
In accedemic lituriture We are seen as far more of a threat and target and hex is mostly ignored
Right, there was that one dweeby guy who wrote an actual paper about us. Wasn’t that before hexbear started federating? I wonder how he heard of one without the other.
https://lemmygrad.ml/c/useful_science
They are all here we must keep track of there usefull science
I’m seeing quite a few misconceptions here and just like to clarify things a bit.
Jlai.lu is a French speaking instance with a majority of French users but also some Belgian, Canadian and Swiss users. The Luxembourg extension is pretty much the same as Redd.it being Italian, with the exact same pun used.
The instance is (European scale) left leaning, with a few leftists being very active (anarchists, communists, socialists…) and a majority of libs, most being libs, some left-leaning libs, a few econolibs. Fascists are immediately kicked out when identified, right-wingers usually end downvoted when explaining their views but are allowed. For context fascists are currently 1/3 to 1/2 of voters in France, depending on the cutoff you use, the whole right pushing to fascism for fear of socdem trying to be social.
An ass launched the idea of defederating hexbear for personal reasons, which turned into a few hexbear users becoming a nuisance on the thread.
The instance admin opened the idea of defederating here and hexbear as a discussion. I don’t know why lemmygrad was mentioned at all. Hexbear defederated from their side.
Votes were cast on people reacting to the ass-thread more than real checking as there are very few interaction between the instances.
Jlailu admin stated that they were thinking about the issue and saw the vote as food for thought but not as a direct decision maker to defederate. Admin is against defederation. At no point is it deemed unavoidable. A few users have tried to point to “problematic” content, usually ending on whatever (didn’t spend the energy cross checking, every instance has shitposts for who digs, admins having a life offline).
Not much to add except that translations are bound to hurt. In France :
Communism is seen as either a slur from people not knowing what it is or as an achieved form, but still usually including some actors of transition (Lenin, Sankara) but excluding others (Stalin, Xi). Don’t ask why, that’s not the point, it’s just that’s how french language evolved and the context needed if you start to dig.
Also, the French socialist party has become right-wing soc-dem (left wing socdem being LFI). The french communist party is… Something, not sure it’s leftist (closest to communist/Marxist/socialist parties would be NPA or luttes ouvrières). So the words really need context.
I’ve nothing to add, but just a quick note because i may have been mistaken, here’s the reasoning :
At no point is it deemed unavoidable.
~Every instance is defederated from hexbear and lemmygrad(, even lemmy.world and the german instance), that’s why i said that.
Furthermore, the only reversal possible would be a veto from the admins(, didn’t thought about that), because your votes(, which i can’t see,) are certainly overwhelmingly in favor of the defederation in regard to your comments under the thread, and ‘already cast’/‘won’t change’. Since it has been more than 10 days, it felt useless to hope changing the mind of everyone else.
Honestly, i also think that if the defederation was somehow avoided now it’d still happen next year or the year after, but what do i know obv
No need to answer, i just felt like adding this precision(, and i haven’t been much on jlai.lu but i remember your username), thanks for taking the time to clarify :) !
and a majority of libs, most being libs, some left-leaning libs, a few econolibs. Fascists are immediately kicked out when identified,
jlai.lu is the french instance of Lemmy
defedrate
So you have a personal problem with instances not being gated communities as well as a xenophobic issue ?
that’s the most right wing argument I saw lmao, my hatred towards the fr*nch liberals isn’t xenophobic, y’all racialist punks deserve it, last thing I want is a community of racist chauvinists who’ll justify colonialism and genocide.
If anyone here wants to know more about the beliefs of anansi and the reasons for why a leftist like him(, very common in France,) is convinced that Hexbear and Lemmygrad are simply contrarians with no backbone to stand firm on our beliefs even when it’s “our” side that commits atrocities, he talked about it at different places, including under this post, but that comment would be a recommended starting point if you want to “convert”/debate/convince him(, which can obviously only be done with enough patience on both sides).
We have nothing to be scared or ashamed of because we both (think that we )believe in the truth(, seek the Truth), and we’re the first ones to criticize the typical western double standards that can be seen everywhere. Like everyone here i’m not afraid of being wrong somewhere nor about exchanging about my/our beliefs.
(We’ve already spoke about it in french so i don’t think i’ll add my own comment, but )There’s a good reply from Cowbee below(, a tiny bit agressive but it could be worse, and more importantly he has good arguments).
(here)
Keep in mind that anansi said here and there that he doesn’t want to defederate on these grounds, and don’t personally want to defederate, but was asked to do a survey by some jlailu users(, following this heated post that according to them wasn’t initially going to lead to anything in the first place).
Anansi is lucky he’s behind a computer screen and I think he uses that. Even on hexbear someone else wanted to beat him up. I know his “anarchist” type, I’ve met them. It’s very French. They keep poking and prodding to get a rise out of you and for no other reason. No honesty, no sincerity. Then when you finally react they’re like “oh I was just joking, why are you taking it so seriously!”
Internet is the occasion to meet other nationalities, so i was wondering : do you have an opinion(, and/or could you tell me the general algerian opinion,) about the western Sahara ? Should it be independent, moroccan, algerian, divided, … ?
Also, it’s not important but it reminds me of seeing a channel a few years ago that offered a bounty for archeological findings proving that the western Sahara was the ancient location of Atlantis, e.g. with this, it’s almost certainly false but kind of the only thing i know about this topic 🤷
The Fr*nch left is Charlie Hebdo
And yeah, the so-called “freedom of expression”*
*As long as we agree with you. Terrorism apologia or what we deem “hate speech” or “disinformation” is a threat to our “values”.
It’s very French.
It makes me think of this video from Blast : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AASPDZd-DKc (5k likes for 145k views)
First you watch the video(, in x2,) hoping from something, then you’re disappointed, and then you read the comments and you’re pleasantly surprised(, at least in my case :))
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: