Comment by BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net on ‘Genocide is not a Jewish value,’ say Jews and Rabbis as they storm AIPAC offices

This pure idealist Sam Harris-style Islamophobia logic turned toward Judaism. You’re wrong for the same reason he’s wrong about Islam.

what happens when you put bronze age morals in practice

Is this 2006? I thought Nu Atheism was over lol. You must be the last holdout for that cringe ass, warmed over racist bullshit

This particular person is from .ml but honestly I’ve seen this kind of rhetoric popping up a lot recently on Hexbear and it’s frustrating.

If you have hatred and contempt in your heart for all religious people, you hate and despise the global proletariat.

Yeah there’s a big difference between believing im secularism and wanting the liberation of people from religious oppression and hating religious people, as well as blaming religion (or bronze age morality) for things caused by modern colonialism and imperialism.

I’m sorry, but I was raised by them. I saw people indoctrinated into believing North African religions were Satan worship who wants to harm Good Christians, that women don’t have reproductive rights and that gay and trans people are scum. Liberation of the proletariat does not exist without liberation from religion.

I was raised by evangelicals myself, and also went through a nu atheist phase when I was 14.

You’re a bigot and you need to grow up and put that away.

There are nonreligious homophobes and misogynists and racists and trans phones. There are religious people who aren’t bigots at all.

Clearly the religion is an excuse for the bigotry and not the ultimate source of it, or neither of those would be true.

Saying that Judaism inherently inclines one to the kinds of genocidal crimes Israel is committing makes you a fucking antisemite and is clearly disproven by the number of religious Jews who have been vocally opposed to the genocide and to Zionism generally.

You don’t get to “I’m oppressed too” your way out of being called out for bigotry.

hatred and contempt

This is a problem. Anything coming from hatred is not coming from a good place.

However, I do have a problem with what monotheism did to the world as a colonising force.

We have depictions of full genocide in the Torah due to a chosen people doctrine (remember, at this time gendercide was nearly the exclusive form of genocide). We had Christians take this after Constantine to take a proselytising mission and turn it into an imperial casus belli. We saw the same with the formation and expansion that lead to the Golden Age of Islam.

While religious tolerance and practices have an increased amount of personal choice now in the “Western” world, that does not mean that the institution that they inherent aren’t any more colonial now then they were then. They are ideas that replaced other ideas, often through a theology of “god strengthens my arm and weakens the heathens, so might makes right”.

It’s not hatred for any set belief, but the “In” and “Out” groups created by “chosen people” dynamics that are inherent within monotheistic religion. They have always been used to perpetuate division among the “foreign”, wealth for an elite, and loyalty from the masses.

[Edited to clarify the last paragraph]

I think you need to be careful with throwing around “choseness” in this way because this is the exact perversion of the Jewish concept of choseness set forth in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Mein Kampf. I’m not trying to let Judaism off the hook for its genuine reactionary and regressive components (particularly with respect to women and non-normative sexuality), but it really muddies the waters when you overlay it with full-throated anti-Jewish projection onto Judaism.

Not really? There is an in-group (Jews) and an out-group (non-Jews, or Gentiles). The same applies for all monotheistic religions in a way that doesn’t gel with the fabric of polytheism. These concepts, over centuries and through different forms (especially Christianity for the “West”) were used to subjugate people by creating these in-groups and out-groups (to the point that the earliest use of the star of David to highlight the Jewish population I know of was done in England by Simon De Montfort (though I’m not an expert)).

That legacy still exists today and the institutions of wealth and (especially in places like the UK & Iran) governance. It’s a legacy of us vs them and colonialism that needs to be examined.

I mean, you just did it again. Wasn’t Simon De Montfort a Christian Crusader who persecuted the Jews? You are taking an antisemitic interpretation of “choseness” applied in a Christian framework that was then used to persecute Jews with a “they started it” argument. Which is exactly what the PEZ and MK did when they framed choseness. Rabbinic Judiasm (which is Judaism following the Roman conquest) deems “choseness” to be chosen NOT to control other populations. The Noahite laws, which apply to everyone whether Jewish or not (in the Jewish religion), specifically command the non Jews to create fair governments that the Jews could live under as 1 of 7 requirements. The Jews are “chosen” to follow the more stringent 613 commandments, which include following the laws of the just governments of non-Jews. Just saying that it creates categories of people is not unique to monotheism (or religion - see “America First”). And I don’t think it tracks that creating groups in any context necessarily leads to genocidal intent and practice.

I mean, you just did it again.

that got me too! Libs are masters at unintentionally doubling down on rascist ideas

You are conflating my criticism of monotheism with a direct criticism of Judaism. I am saying the core value of monotheism (i.e. there is one god and its the one I picked) has created a colonial mindset in all monotheistic religion. You’re saying “I did it again”, but I’m doing it for all. I mean the Arab conquests soon after Muhhamad’s death is the same as well.

Monotheism, as an ideology, has stolen a lot from us in terms of ways of thinking, belief, and added division in its stead. This continues to be true in major geopolitical states including America, Israel, Iran, and many, many more countries.

Okay, to be clear, in the discussion you’re jumping into, one of the interlocutors has stated that Jews are inherently genocidal.

I’m an atheist and I don’t particularly value religion but I do value people and there are many good people who do value their religion and I won’t stand for them being painted as inherently genocidal and neither should you.

There’s a time and place for nuance but I don’t know that this is it.

Religious people aren’t inherently genocidal. Their religion is.

I will say though, this is a great Sam Harris impression. Antisemitic Sam Harris is actually an interesting bit

Help me understand, and I actually mean this, this isn’t a framing device for a dumb point though it looks like one. I mean this, I would rather be taught.

If the religious texts say genocidal stuff, why is it wrong to say if an institution believes in it, it believes in genocidal stuff? I can understand if sects qualify or revise it and I wouldn’t call them that, but why is saying, for instance, “Christianism is homophobic” wrong when that is what the bible teaches? Again, if one church recontextualizes it, or says it was just Paul who said it, God is Love, fine, but can that sect speak for all Christianity when even in context the book preaches homophobia?

I’m saying the entire structure of monotheism has created a system of colonial thought and destruction across much of the world. Even the good theists I have met (and I have met many) will think less of or sorry for someone in the out group.

It’s not Judaism, it’s not Islam, it’s not Christianity: it is the colonial ideology embedded in these ideologies that I’m saying are a negative force on the planet.

I was replying directly to the comment above, not so much the context. You are right to point that out.

So you don’t think religion plays a part in the Israeli genocide of Palestinians and the American public’s support of the genocide?

Also, not atheist.

I think religion is one of the primary factors for how powerful and stalwart the resistance is against said genocide. What would you say about the only major defenders of the Palestinians being all Islamic?

I say that mostly Islamic people are the only ones not failing Palestinian people.

You don’t have to be athiest to espouse cringe ass nu athiest thought. #1 the idealist delusion that religion and thought dictates actions and reality and not the other way around.

The genocide is not caused by religion or “bronze age morality” any more than genicide is caused by individual rascist thoughts or beliefs. Isreal is a settler-colonial project and an extension of US imperialism. That’s what is driving the genocide, not bronze age morality.

No, a ton of Israelis are secular and they support this just as much as religious Israelis, and this is clearly about land and wealth. The American government is supporting the genocide, and it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with supporting a white supremacist settler colony that functions as an unsinkable aircraft carrier in a resource rich region.

I do, but the culprit is the Christian religion, which is what Zionism is. The fact that they recruited Jewish foot soldiers for their crusades doesn’t give the excuse to parrot Protocols of the Elders of Zion characterizations of the Jewish religion devoid of 2,000 years of historical context. It’s also the reason that the American public supports the genocide, because American culture has been dominated by Christian crusaders whose theology is based on genocidal settler colonialism ever since the so-called Pilgrims (who were themselves Zionists) landed in Massachusetts.

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