Can anyone explain LibSoc vs. Bernie/EU-style socialism? It’s not just a means of craming free-market bs into social safety, is it?
Nope, it’s not. “Libertarian socialism” and “anarchism” are often used more-or-less interchangeably, though I’m sure someone will take issue with that categorization. The pro-capitalist usage of the word “libertarian” is an appropriation of a leftist term by the right.
In French, libertaire and anarchist are literally interchangeable.
I am beyond sick and tired of both left and right wing people using “Libertarian” to refer to lunatics from the American GOP who decided to co-op and abuse the term.
Libertarianism per se has nothing to do with capitalism per se. You can have libertarianism with or without capitalism and vice-versa, at least in principle (in practice, of course, some implementations are going to be more challenging than others to design and/or implement).
Bernie/EU-style socialism
I would categorize that as social democracy, which usually really focuses on social welfare/safety nets instead of taking over the means of production. its also really electoral in its strategy.
I think other comments already explained Libertarian Socialism
Bernie likes EU-style socialism. He says so. Also, he’s been called a sewer socialist, i.e., someone who, when in charge, makes sure the basics (sewers, water, potholes, etc.) are taken care of. Leftists who dwell in theory more than practice sometimes look down on sewer socialism. LibSoc: Chomsky identifies as LibCom–close enough.
I like that. Alright. I’m a sewer socialist. The only times I’ve ever interracted with campaigners, my first questions are of how the homeless will be treated, how the roads will be maintained, how they choose to bid on infrastructure contracts, and how they’re protecting small businesses. If their answer in any way does not confront the question, or if I catch even a whiff of free-market talk, I walk/hang up instantly.
Depends on who you ask. If you ask a Marxist they will probably tell you LibSoc has a similar goal as they have but will fall back into regular capitalism along the way.
From a Marxist perspective LibSoc is Utopian Socialism (as opposed to Scientific Socialism) as it builds on ideals and doesn’t take into account an analysis of the material conditions and class struggle Marxists derive from it.
More broadly ideals are seen by Marxists as a product of their time and its material conditions (historical materialism) and, since those material conditions brought forth the current burgeoisie, they are inherently biased towards it. (An example Engels gives is the self-evidence of private ownership in the philosophy of the so called “age of the enlightenment”, the prevalent racism and sexism in those philosophies would be other examples)
In that context one could bring up that Anarchism (essentially a form of LibSoc) was used by the FBI in COINTELPRO to disrupt existing socialist movements, but in all fairness that was probably primarily done bc it was the best way to promote leftist infighting. Though I wager the FBI would never “support” ML in the same way to disrupt anarchism, so part of it must have been that anarchism is less threatening to existing power structures.
I don’t intent to discredit LibSoc and anarchism I relate with their ideals and some implementations like mutual help. I do believe though that a Marxist critique and analysis is extremely valuable and should be studied by anachists and LibSocs alike.
In that context one could bring up that Anarchism (essentially a form of LibSoc) was used by the FBI in COINTELPRO to disrupt existing socialist movements, but in all fairness that was probably primarily done bc it was the best way to promote leftist infighting. Though I wager the FBI would never “support” ML in the same way to disrupt anarchism, so part of it must have been that anarchism is less threatening to existing power structures.
Come on… that has been long proved as complete fake news. This was a proposal peddled by some low level operative and was immediately dismissed by the higher ups in the FBI as they full well knew this would never fly with anarchists and would be a waste of money (this is a documented fact).
The FBI rather went on and created/infiltrated local ML groups and due to the hierarchical structures that worked extremely well as no-one dared to question the FBI plants once they reached a high enough position.
Get out of here with this bullshit, anarchism was considered the most disruptive movement on the left but tankies are idiots. Anarchists groups were infiltrated just as ML ones.
I take it you disagree, that is your prerogative.
For what its worth I didn’t see that I was in c/anarchism. Had I seen the question was asked from an anarchist view I wouldn’t have responded.
I do believe what I wrote but I understand that it can come across as an insult here. And that was not my intention.
but tankies are idiots
I do think that is not a good take though, for one bc “tankie”, by now, is just a slur to prevent someone from being taken seriously and secondly bc I believe it is ignorant to disregard a Marxist analysis.
As a Marxist has to answer to an anarchist critique of justification and potential corruption of a centralised power an Anarchist would do good to ponder on a materialist critique and socialization of production
