This meme is from 2004. History repeats itself.
It’s important to note that the real disparity may be even far worse.
OCHA-OPT (the committee gathering this data) is strict about verifying validity of Palestinian casualties, requiring two independent, verified and non-affiliated sources. Casualties in Israel, however, they trust the media at face value. They also exclude a lot of Palestinian casualties even when verified in certain situations. Example, and I quote them:
People who were killed or injured in conflict-related incidents that took place in Israel and did not involve residents of the oPt are also excluded.
oPt (occupied Palestinian territories) are the areas that Israel does not directly oversee. So most of Israel is not oPt by their criteria.
Israel is notorious for restricting journalists reporting on Israeli crimes, and has murdered journalists countless of times, like last year the Christian Palestinian Shireen Abu Akleh reporting on the forced expulsion of Palestinians from Sheikh Jarrah (so not even in a war zone area). This causes many casualties to go unverified and thus undocumented.
And Israel has been caught lying before about its own casualties, like the 40 beheaded babies.
Take that as you will.
They’ve got a long road ahead of them to kill that many people but i admit the thought occurred to me as well. There does seem to be a ratio being followed here.
Definitely helps that Hamas uses the Palestinian people as human shields launching rockets from schools and hospitals.
Just stop and consider the psyche that takes. You have to 1) be completely willing to sacrifice the most vulnerable of your own people and 2) admit that your enemy doesn’t want to kill those same people. Imagine how things may go if Israel attempted to use Jews as human shields against Hamas.
This isn’t the Palestinian people “resisting”, it’s their batshit “government” that would kill us all if they had their way, killing as many people as they can regardless of whether it actually helps the cause of their people.
There is no doubt the Israeli government has and continues to commit war crimes. But supporting or justifying Hamas is just insane.
Didn’t look like you’re replying to anyone supporting Hamas.
Also, there is an alternative #2 in your scenario. “Know your enemy would lose too much western support too readily if they were to fine on all the civilian targets they would like to”.
Even in your alternative, this is preferable to Hamas who has no such reservations and is being backed by Iran who wants nothing but to cause havoc and weasel their way to nuclear power.
I’m replying to people who are conflating Hamas’ deranged action as some sort of legitimate resistance
Imagine how things may go if Israel attempted to use Jews as human shields against Hamas.
You mean like putting many settlements and civilians right on the border of Gaza, a concentration camp and active war Zone? Or allowing a rave dance to occur at the gates of a concentration camp and active war zone, and next to a military base that would be targeted by Hamas? And sprinkle in some IDF tanks while you’re at it.
Wait, we don’t have to imagine it.
It isn’t anti-Semitism to criticize israel, it’s just noticing the obvious.
There are criticisms that are antisemitic. This isn’t one of them, though.
My favorite was when Bernie Sanders was called antisemitic for criticizing Israel. His response was something along the lines of “It isn’t antisemitic to criticize a right-wing government in Israel.” It must’ve taken all the patience in the world to not add “you fucking toolbags”.
Fascists get away with conflating Judaism and Zionism because they don’t teach that Zionism has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism, and actually goes against a lot of their values. It’s actually been around for quite awhile; you know the crusades, when they went around killing a bunch of civilians to set up settlements? Those were Christian Zionists.
That’s why it’s anti-semitic to conflate the two. One is a religion and the other is a fascist genocidal colonialist movement. So next time you see some german lady shouting down a holocaust survivor for calling out Israeli apartheid (yes, this literally happened, and it was the Jewish guy who got punished) you’ll see it for what it is. It’s not complicated, it’s a clear cut case of modern day nazism.
I’m mostly pro Palestine, but using this picture with the subtitle ‘history repeats itself’ and therefore portraying what happened at the festival, and the other slaughter missions as a tiny goofy missile, feels kinda disproportionate. Don’t you think?
No. Hundreds of thousands will die in response to hundreds dying. The comic is still fully accurate even if “a single missile” is still condemnable.
Shall we begin an era of endless terror by proving it works?
Just look at the US military, we already have
I felt just like this after 9/11. I don’t know enough about your country to tell you what the right thing to do is. But I wish that the USA could go back in time and just gradually assassinate Al Queda with the CIA instead or something. Those occupations were doomed from the start.
I’m not talking about who shoots the biggest rockets and who kills more people here. I’m talking about portraying a literal slaughter fest as a tiny lil rocket, mosquito sting or whatever, which causes no harm at all. This is not the right comic & subtitle to show what happened ‘today’. At least in my opinion. Because it’s not disproportionate to what happened.
But feel free to disagree, it you think it is. To me OP is more or less mocking the victims and I find it distasteful. Especially because people were involved, who weren’t even culturally part of this ethnical conflict in the first place.
And no I’m not part of team both sides bad, because this conflict involves more than two sides and in the end people in Gaza suffer the most.
Where did I mock the victims? Do not put words in my mouth. Can you not make a half-sound argument without lying?
It IS NOT a disproportionate representation. THAT’S THE POINT.
I am very sorry you fail to realize what death Israel will doll out in response, but this comic is completely accurate in the proportions displayed.
You LITERALLY have fighter jets and bombers striking back against … paragliders with guns…
Again, NO ONE except fucking losers are saying Hamas did anything good. That doesn’t make murdering dozens of thousands of Palestinians OK.
I don’t think disproportionate response doctrine from countries like the US and Israel should come as a surprise after more than half a century of conflict. Why murder 100 innocent people of your opponent when you know they will murder 1000 innocents of your people in response?
It may not be a surprise but it’s still disgusting and worth calling out.
Take 9/11 for an example, in response to a few thousand dying, America invaded Iraq (who was not even responsible) and killed several orders of magnitude more people. As well as looting their wealth, subordinating their government and economy to American interests, and effectively occupying them for two decades. Anytime an American says “never forget” they should be reminded how thoroughly soaked in blood they are.
Likewise, when zionists shed crocodile tears for a few hundred dead festival goers who were depraved enough to go raving only a few short kilometers from the world’s largest concentration camp. They must be reminded of what they have done to Palestine. Invasion. Displacement. Occupation. Ethnic cleansing. Apartheid. Imprisonment. Genocide.
When it comes to war, there can be no holdbacks because hesitation means life or death.
“history repeats itself” as in the people who only condemn needless killing when Hamas does it, but ignore the Palestinian cause the rest of the time.
It’s almost like motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances matter and not just body count. For example, intentionally targeting civilians to maximize civilian deaths is not the same as accidentally killing civilians with collateral damage while trying to minimize civilian deaths.
Guess which side this is, then:
Scores of people, mainly women and children, have been killed in multiple air strikes on the main road connecting north and south Gaza, as people carried out an Israeli order to flee their homes.
According to the Ministry of Health, at least 70 people have been killed in three separate air strikes on the road, with the latest killing at least 40.
The Israeli army said in a statement on Friday that civilians must leave Gaza City in the north, and that they would not be allowed to return “until we say so” and until “a statement is issued allowing this”.
However, locals have reported a number of attacks on the Salah al-Din Road since then. Survivors, speaking to local media, implored others not to make the journey for fear of being targeted by the Israelis.
“Do not leave,” a distraught survivor of the attacks told local media.
“They bombed the convoy. They bombed it on Salah al-Din Road. They bombed the ambulances.”
Another survivor said the attacks were a “direct targeting of women and children”.
“I was in the truck. There were about 200 people. 90 percent were women and children. We took the main road that the entire world knew we were taking. My entire family were with me. Out of nowhere, they dropped a bomb. Everything was black and I lost conscience for 10 mins,” they told local media.
“When I woke up I saw a mother lying with her baby, whose brain was right next to him. I heard the ambulances then they bombed again. I took cover and after a few minutes tried to check the damage, then they bombed again.”
When Israeli soldiers are bragging about raping and torturing people, it’s very clear what their intentions are
while trying to minimize civilian deaths
If that’s what they’re trying to do, they really fucking suck at it.
And the motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances don’t matter a bit to the victims and their loved ones.
Rules of the internet: you can safely discard everything that comes before the “, but”
This is nothing new. Often the actions of Israel are portrayed in the worst way possible. As a quick example: The UN considers everyone under 18 a child, hamas starts recruiting at 14. When the IDF does a raid and kills one of these members the Arab media screams „Isreal has slaughtered children“
This is why I switched to being more pro Israel
Ignoring of course the countless children they kill who aren’t part of hamas. The ratio of children to adults killed by Israel can only be reached by doing it on purpose.
You “switching sides” because you don’t like the media reporting on these murders is a joke and I can only assume a lie, because it doesn’t make sense.
The media reporting stuff doesn’t change what is happening nor the morals and ethics involved. Silly to blame the media for you choosing to support the murder of innocents.
It’s on purpose, but on the hamas side, they use children and civilians in general as human meat shields. They fire their rockets from schools and hospitals, hide their equipment in residential areas. Just to scream „Israel bad“ when one of these outpost gets attacked
I’d like to add even more context: ~45% of Palestine is under the age of 14.
Dafuq is this meme? civilians are civilians, regardless of the country religion or whatever the duck they’re born in.
If civilians are civilians…
"Amongst Israelis, 69% of those killed were civilians and 31% members of the IDF. The number of Israeli civilians killed, from attacks by Palestinian armed groups or individuals, has declined steadily, peaking in 2002 at an average of 22 deaths per month, and dropping markedly to an average of one civilian per month in 2007. 6/
In contrast to Israeli figures, however, Palestinian civilian fatalities have remained high. Palestinian civilians, killed by Israeli security forces, peaked with an average of 35 deaths per month in 2002, and again in 2004. In 2007 they dropped slightly to an average of ten civilian deaths per month."
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208380/
Both sides kill civilians with abandon, and Israel is markedly better at it. Major media doesn’t seem to care very much about Palestinian civilians though.
But it’s not because of a lack of trying. Israel has the iron dome. Since then the death’s declined. They protect the civilians, that’s why the deaths declined.
Fair, but the point is that there is no side here playing by the no civilians rule, yet only Palestinians are called out for it.
The headline of the newest chapter in this shitshow for some reason is “How could Hamas attack Civilians?! Civilians?!” When the reality is that hasn’t really been a red line to the Israeli government or Hamas. Never has been.
Its evil all day, don’t get me wrong. The twisted thing is that somehow Israel is somehow perpetually marketed as being the good guys playing by the rules of engagement in spite of being no different with regards to killing non-enemy combatants.
Why are israeli civilian concert goers a global tragedy, while Palestinian civilian casualties past and present just another thursday? Why doesn’t the world lose its shit at 10 Palestinian civilians killed a month? Are Palestinians somehow universally recognized as having less value as human beings than Israelis?
I completely agree with you. Which is why when you look at the grotesque number of civilians Israel kills every year it’s pretty easy to condem them.
YES, because OP is typing words that can be misconstrued as being a shill or a bigoted asshole. I’m smart enough to recognize it if you point it out, but I’m not fucking psychic, and I’m the kind of person who believes in dream prophesies so that just shows that neither potential delusion nor intelligence have anything to do with people misreading things online. It’s just human and technical limitations, but your italics are clear so: if you don’t want people to be annoyed at you, maybe respond without being condescending.
I think I’m going to take an extended break from Lemmy. People are treating a 70+ year political quagmire like a football match, where they pick a side and then morally grandstand about how awful the other side is. Fuck all of you.
