Something I’ve always wondered is what kind of women were in the lives of incel men when they were young. Did they have a bad relationship with their mother? Did they lack sisters or other female family members? Or is their family situation irrelevant? Maybe some particular situation in their early years caused them to develop a complex around women?
It is not linked to the past, it is a rejection trauma.
It is considered normal in our societies to be with someone. And as a man, you are culturally expected to be able to find a woman, and you are responsible for it. If you are a single man, it is because you choose it or because you’re a failed man. The media like to talk about how you now have sex at 11 and how men have many relationships. When you’re still virgin at 18, you already feel like a miserable failure. And the longer it goes, the harder it become. For some men they don’t even need to be virgin, they may have had their first relationship by luck.
Then came #metoo. Many men discovered how hard women had it because of men. And this broke something: before, when you were bad with women, you merely had to man up. There was only one model for men, but it was there. After metoo, this model was broken. Now men are completely helpless.
This second point is reinforced politically by the fact that the left spend a lot of time to talk about women problems, but never talks about how men should be to be successful with women. You have feminist movements spreading hatred against all men, and this is also hard. When communication makes it like all men are assholes and can’t behave with women, but no one tells you how you should do instead, you just feel attacked and helpless.
With that, these men are completely destroyed. Suicide is an option an this point. But hatred is another one. And fascism lives out of hatred. But fascism came later. First there was hatred as an exit of this situation for the desperate men: it’s not their fault, it’s women fault. That’s only the only way you can go out of the misery. And with hatred, you can start to blame them for everything that’s happening. You’re single because the women are stupid and prefer the machist men. And feminism is a fraud.
And oh boy do fascists love this situation! Now they can easily radicalise you because you already did the job. Because the progressive left abandoned these men, the fascists gladly took the opportunity. And you now have a strategy and a market around this.
Not all men fall for this. But the pain and hardship is shared by many men nonetheless. The problem is societal: there is no counter-model to the one old toxic one that’s been discarded by #metoo. You can’t merely make your own model, because the point is to be attractive to women. Which means it actually is a problem for women too. But the progressists unfortunately forgot those men in their fights for the rights of the sexual minorities and the women, so these men are alone.
As a man, you no have 3 solutions : you are lucky enough to be with a woman already ; you embrace the toxic masculinity of the fascists ; or you’re left alone in a no man’s land of solitude and despair. The incels are the men going from the 3rd to the 2nd category.
Society is changing. The process will take time with highs and lows. We’re getting into a low with this problem, and we’ll go to a new high when we will have fixed it. But for now, incels will be the symptom of the failure to include men in feminism.
Feminism does not exclude men.
The media like to talk about how you now have sex at 11
What?
Now men are completely helpless.
WHAT?
How can you think so poorly of men, to believe their only purpose in life is finding a sex partner, and blame feminism for anything? Maybe learn to respect yourself and realize that you have value and things to contribute to this world that don’t have anything to do with romantic relationships.
I hope you realize that this very message of yours is asking men to man up and stop complaining. You are hereby promoting toxic masculinity.
Lmfao, if you’re not capable of seeing the gulf of difference between “hey man, never express any emotion ever” and “hey adult, take some responsibility for your feelings and work on yourself” then I can’t help you.
Maybe some people want romantic relationships.
Women fought to have the lives of men: a public, non romantic life, and that’s an excellent thing.
Many men today want romantic relationships. How is this a bad thing? What kind of monster are you to say that a man should suck it up and forget any idea of intimacy or romantic relationship with a woman?
This is exactly the reason why these people turn incels or machists. And you’re not worth more than them.
I don’t blame feminism. I don’t blame the left. I point at their shortcomings. You can’t build a world of equality of you don’t include men.
The future is together.
Please point to exactly where I said that. It’s fine to want a romantic relationship. But if anyone - man or woman or anything in between - defines their entire self-worth on that one single thing, then they’re going to have a very bad time in life. Relationships end. People die. If the only thing you can see yourself as is the partner to another person and you lose (or can’t get) that other person, then you’re lost.
Work on being whole yourself and defining your value to and for your own self. Work, art, skilled hobbies, charity, friends, family. All of these things can provide value to your community. Find self worth outside of romantic relationships is the best advice for anyone in the world, even people who are currently in romantic relationships.
You have feminist movements spreading hatred against all men, and this is also hard.
Lies, this is propaganda by the reactionary anti-feminism movements
no one tells you how you should do instead, you just feel attacked and helpless.
Again, made up. It’s simply that any solution presented didn’t offer the same power dynamic the previous one did, because women are more empowered.
As a man, you no have 3 solutions.
Lmao what??? Where’s the “be a decent, respectful person while also being authentic,” the one that has been doled out for decades at this point?
incels will be the symptom of the failure to include men in feminism.
I see you have no idea what you’re talking about, because you’re not at all educated on feminism. Men are not in the title of feminism, and they’re angry they’re not.
It’s funny how your last sentence directly contradict your first one, don’t you think?
I’m all for being decent, authentic and blablabla. But that’s not the matter. Which shows how oblivious you are to the problem.
The problem is about dating and romantic interactions. Being decent, romantic and authentic is a worthless advice.
Exactly this. I’m someone who definitely could have fallen into the incel pipeline and you hit the nail on the head. To be clear, I’m 28 years old and have never gotten past a first date (and have only had one of those). I’ve only ever experienced rejection. I’ve never experienced any kind of physical or emotional intimacy from someone I was attracted to. Basically every aspect of human culture and society make me feel like a failure for this. Of course, while I am “involuntarily celibate”, I’m not an incel. I have the good sense to realise that it’s my own fault and to hate myself rather than to place the blame with women. I have a recently diagnosed case of Autism Spectrum Disorder which has hardly impacted other aspects of my life. I have friends, a career, pastimes, I live on my own. Literally the only place where I feel “disabled” is in trying to form meaningful connections with women.
Seems like these incels have no personal responsibility, it is society’s fault.
Yeah, kinda.
If you need help or support of some sort, and you’re black, there are tons of black or African American support groups available. If you’re a women, again, there are tons of support groups. Black and a woman? Congrats, you can double dip.
Now, what’s the first pro-white-male group you can think of.
That’s why I think it’s not just an individual problem, but a societal one.
I assume you mean what is a pro male group that doesn’t have negative societal impacts. There are plenty of pro white male groups: NFL, NHL, their fan clubs, pro soccer(euro football) fan groups, NRA, Elks, Shriners, Freemasons.
What is really missing is a pro male, not at the cost of being neg-female group. It also doesn’t have to be a white men group, realizing that all men need to have a place to be men together but also not be stereotypical men but emotionally transparent, honest with eachother men.
Admittedly I haven’t read this whole article but this kinda group sounds reasonable: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/18/the-good-men-inside-the-all-male-group-taking-on-modern-masculinity
Now, what’s the first pro-white-male group you can think of.
Ku Klux Klan
…but why would anyone want to associate with garbage white supremacists?
If you need help or support of some sort, and you’re black, there are tons of black or African American support groups available. If you’re a women, again, there are tons of support groups. Black and a woman? Congrats, you can double dip.
In the USA at least, those other groups (black support groups, women’s support groups) exist because of the long history of bad things that white males have done to every other race and gender. Those groups work to counteract at least a small part of the hundreds of years of white male oppression on these groups.
Being a white male in the USA is still one the most privileged groups. Don’t think so? Ask a woman about very basic things they have to do be safe, such as having a friend with them to walk at night or worrying about a man drugging their drink at a bar/party. Ask a person of color about the risks of being fully licensed to drive a car but being in the wrong type of city, or the risks of them owning a legal firearm and having an encounter with Police officers.
The only thing being more privileged than “white male” in the USA is “rich white male”.
Yes, let’s blame the women again.
The better question would include the father of the incel or what kind of parents does the incel have?
Why not just take responsibility for who and what you are and I don’t know, just live your life? Get help and get over it. Women don’t owe you anything.
I’m more interested in how the incel would treat a woman if he ever found one.
Oh goody gumdrops I’m about to become very unpopular again. Maybe this time someone will help me change my POV if I am wrong instead of just getting angry and resorting to name calling.
Here goes: feminism left young men behind and as much as one might want to say “don’t blame women” the feminist movement has given power to women over the years and that power comes with responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is to collaboratively carve out a space for men as we strive for an egalitarian society.
You know that if you say what what I just said you’re blaming women again, while if you ask how men can take part in feminism you’re making women’s struggles all about men, again.
Can’t win.
How can we have an equitable society if one side is never to blame for anything and the other is ‘whining or attention’ when they ask to be included in the changes?
The simple fact is that feminism has been an incredible source for good but it has focused solely on women. That has been a mistake because as one side changes, the other too just reshape itself.
I’m middle aged and I know so many men who my age and even some younger who thrash about daily trying to make sense of society with no role models and no standards to aspire to. No wonder some become angry.
Imagine being the youngest in generations of men who have been raised according to macho ideals. Be the breadwinner, protect women and children. Hunt. Gather. Kill or be killed… and now act with kindness and empathy to a changing world. I’m not defending or apologising for incels but it is time for young boys and young men to be considered and included in feminism. I’m a dad to two girls and a feminist, and I don’t want my daughters partners to be a couple of ornery jackasses.
There. I said it.
BTW: this is one of the ideas being addressed on the brilliant Barbie movie. “Maybe every night didn’t have to be a girls night.”
You misunderstood the Barbie movie… And everything else. Your entire post proves that when you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
Have an upvote, but I don’t really agree with you. Here in the Netherlands about the time my two boys entered elementary school the government took a look at the stats and realized that boys over the last decade had poorer outcomes post secondary education than girls. So, they (to decidedly mixed success) added some more and more frequent physical activity including something that translates to rock and water, which is kinda hard to explain, but is a way to use physical exercise to teach boundaries. You can see similar stats regarding differences in outcomes for men and women in university graduation rates in America and the UK.
The point I’m trying to make is that something in our systems changed, and to some it appears to be a kind of zero sum game (which I do not believe it is or has to be). I mean sure there is a chance that producing better outcomes for girls, which is great, has had some negative effect on boys; the problem is we cannot tell if the two are related, outside of some inherent gross physical differences in size, strength etc. Thus, the incels immediately jumped to the conclusion that its “teh Femmminizzzz.”
And I do agree with the OP of this sub-thread that it is a very difficult process to realize your privilege, to see beyond it and then through someone else’s eyes. Unless you are lucky and either hit just the right place to start researching or have friends who can help, if you didn’t internalize your privilege at an early age, it’s a long ass road. Took me a good decade, and most weeks I come across something I still hadn’t learned.
I’ve brought both my boys up to understand exactly how privileged they are to have been born white, with a dick, straight, and in a wealthy W European country. I see many fathers and mothers here in NL have done the same. The kids these days really are all right. So I have real hope the Zoomers by and large and the incel subculture notwithstanding will simply never internalize the hateful points of view we Xers had to brute force our way out of.
You are an idiot and you understand nothing of the problem. This is not about privileges, this is about how you reinvent relationships between men and women when the old model is obviously as toxic as it is obsolete.
Right now there is a bad model and no alternative. That is the problem. Feel free to ignore it and hate the privileged men though, but that will not solve anything.
Help me understand it then? I’m not here saying: “nothing will change my opinion” I’m literally asking for help to do that.
If the film is not about the realisation that Barbieland is a game and that the real world doesn’t need to be ‘Kens vs Barbies’ then what is the massage please?
“You misunderstand a movie, and everything else.” Are you living up to your responsibilities here or just expecting change without any effort?
Who the hell has been telling men to hunt, gather and kill or be killed? What society are you living in? And no, i do not have a responsibility to carve aout a space for men (between my legs perhaps?). What the fuck are you on about? If men so desparately need role models and someone to look up too that’s their problem. They could try just being good people but i guess that’s too confusing.
Feminism isn’t just about women; it’s about everybody. You mention a macho upbringing - that’s one of the many things that feminism is trying to fight. Telling boys that they have to be “strong,” be the breadwinner, can’t have emotions - these things are actively harmful to the boys. Everyone needs feminism - it’s about letting everyone be anything.
You may have heard the term “toxic masculinity” at some point. If not, I recommend doing some reading on it.
Since I haven’t seen it mentioned…it might be the same attitude you displayed with the question OP. Immediately wondering which woman’s fault it is that a man is acting badly.
It’s the Freudian question. What every psychology treatment, let it be behavior, psychoanalysis, humanist… comes to: Can you talk about your childhood/parents? It’s not an invalid question, but not a responsible thing for an actual adult to do, make your parents totally responsible for your actions past adulthood.
My casual take: I’m not sure if it’s 100% upbringing but for most it seems some sense of entitlement. They deserve the pretty girl because something-something even though they might not be bringing much to the table attraction wise.
And now I just had a passing thought. We don’t seem to hear about gay incels much. Is that even a thing?
It’s deeply patriarchal in the sense that incels are a group of people that think women are obliged to give sex to men. This simply doesn’t work for gays, even though there are deeply misogynist gays who embraced patriarchal norms, and are maybe even sympathetic to incels.
So yes you are completely correct about the entitlement part. The entitlement is that men are entitled to sex from women. The something-something is the patriarchy and the bemoaning of a culture that is taking it away. Or giving women the freedom to pick and choose, because they will then only pick 'chads". Etc.
This is only half the explanation. This patriarcal culture is the old model, but also the only one. The old model has been broken, but no new model exists. There are only two solutions out of this: a new male model, but you can hardly do that alone and no one cares about it currently ; or the feminists are wrong and the old model is actually good.
It’s easy to fall in the trap of the second solution, and fascists are now making hard propaganda for it because they feast over hatred and a glorified past. Here they get to glorify an outdated culture, and to hate on a political opponent. This outdated culture is also about hating on a supposedly weak group, women. Win win for them. Hard loss for society.
I think that all patriarchal models, not just male models, are disappearing and that we’re witnessing the loss of privilege. It’s not as if feminism is creating a model to be a woman, it’s the opposite it’s the destruction of the gender model.
So, I really do not believe in the idea that men need a new model. We can just tap into our humanity and be who we are, authentically. In essence abolishing gender all together. It shouldn’t be a social factor expecting/demanding you to behave a certain way.
It’s difficult to figure out the difference between being authentic and being ideologically programmed, especially when they overlap. It’s far easier to claim that true authenticity is inherent in patriarchal ideology. And that’s why incels claim the ‘old’ model is actually good.
It’s also why it’s mostly a problem for impressionable young men who lack introspection, or at least the life experience needed for it to be useful. While the removal of patriarchal ideology they are subject to haven’t really changed, male culture and tradition stand in the way of that. So on the one hand they are fully aware of what is expected for them in the male role but on the other hand society and especially women are moving away from this expectation. Depending on social factors you deal with this discrepancy differently.
If there is something lacking it is that there are very few men who stand there with open arms to catch these young men on the feminist side. We need more men that embrace feminism and guide young men with acceptance and love. And I have a theory for why but this is getting long. (feminism lifted on the back of individualism)
We can be a person without the baggage of a gender role.
I think boys and men have serious issues in our society that are not getting the attention they need. This along with changing social structures leaves some men behind. And they turn to the dark corners of the internet where other men just like them seem to care about them, and seem to have the same problems as them.
Boys and men are falling behind in schools and universities. Many colleges that have affirmative action are now having to use it to boost enrollment for men. Many of these rules were originally meant to increase numbers for women.
Women and girls have issues that society needs to help them with, and often times these issues get a lot more attention and are met with sympathy and understanding.
Whereas sometimes for men’s issues, the base reaction of society is to say stop crying and be a man. Men asking for help in and of itself is generally seen as not a manly thing to do.
This is an oversimplification of the issues, but just making fun of incels without trying to understand where they are coming from is probably not the best strategy to get them the help they need.
This in turn, leads them to start listening to men like Andrew Tate and other asshats.
What gets me is that the discourse around incels is forcibly centered on how they effect women, when it should be focussed on the societal problems that turned those men that way in the first place. But it’s not palettable to discuss the issue unless women are given the victimhood role.
It’s much like how every year funds raised for breast cancer research are an order of magnitude more than funds raised for prostate cancer research, even though more men die of it than women do of breast cancer. Both are worthy of funding, but they’re certainly not treated equally.
Men not getting the sex they feel entitled to is not a societal problem. It’s a male problem. Noone is entitled to sex and men need to learn that.
Would just like to point out the men can also get breast cancer:
I would just like to say, that society didn’t just start “caring more about women’s issues over men’s issues” overnight. To get society to give a shit about women at all has been a constant, centuries-long battle fought by various feminists.
It’s not the effect of society “caring more about women” necessarily that you’re seeing, it’s the direct impact of a loooooong battle for recognition. I think that men could benefit from the same thing, because there are a lot of problems that men also face because of the same patriarchy that women face. The be strong, don’t show emotion, being to close to another man is gay type of rhetoric is extremely harmful.
When done in a good-faith way that’s not a disguised attempt to roll-back women’s rights as some men’s rights discussions can sometimes be, I (a feminist woman) am a huge advocate for healing our boys and men. Obviously changing the way we parent boys will help, but it also takes communities of already-grown men themselves to come together to do that work on themselves, as with any self-improvement.
The important part of the word incel is the “in”—their situation is involuntary. They don’t have the skills or ability to change without help.
Most do- they just think they’re entitled enough not to have to life a finger. It’s entirely voluntary for most of them.
You left a comment above saying that there are no cultural elements that contribute to people becoming incels. You need to have some more empathy for people, as long as they aren’t hurting others
I have a friend who has slid into a lifestyle that is incel adjacent (he’s not quite fully rage filled against women yet), and I find that it is hard to determine what is voluntary and what isn’t. He is fully capable of getting a job or a girlfriend, but his worldview is so warped by depression and anxiety that he simply self sabotages any opportunity to have those things. He suffers greatly and blames himself a lot, but he is also the only thing that is ever standing in his way.
He doesn’t lift a finger to work unless forced, but observing him over the years has led me to believe that it is all a product of severe anxiety. There is no chance of failure if you never try, and it’s easier to act arrogant than it is to constantly reveal how much you actually hate and doubt yourself.
Sadly, there’s not much you can do for someone like that other than continue to be honest and hope it seeps in. Sometimes I feel like Brandon Novak waiting on Bam Margera to be ready for help, but I still have hope that he’ll see the light one day. Under all that negativity, he is still a worthwhile person.
I listened to an interview with a woman who did an in-depth study of the loose coalition of websites and social media personalities of which the incel movement is a part. She described it as “funnel shaped,” which is to say that they don’t start with the darkest, most unhinged language. They start by talking to young men who feel lonely and rejected, and they talk about how they shouldn’t feel bad about being men, how they deserve respect and status, and then it goes on from there down the rabbit hole into the really depraved stuff.
The reason this works is because a lot of young men don’t hear those initial encouraging words in a lot of other places. They hear a lot about toxic masculinity and the harm of the patriarchy, and they feel like their identities are being targeted, and they don’t have a lot of positive healthy male role models to turn to.
We need to have ways of talking to men, especially young men, about how they should feel good about themselves, how they should be proud of the good things they can do in the world, how they should be the best versions of themselves that they can be, and all of that in ways that don’t lead down that dark road to toxicity. It’s an incredibly wide ranging problem, and it’s not going to be easy to fix.
Very interesting. I checked your claim and you’re right https://hechingerreport.org/an-unnoticed-result-of-the-decline-of-men-in-college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in/
