“Officials said that Israel and Egypt were prepared to let foreigners leave the Strip which is under heavy Israeli bombardment, but Hamas had refused.”
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza. I hope the international community can come together to find a way. I definitely wouldn’t leave it to Israel lol.
It probably involves with allying with the PLO or some more secular faction of Palestinians, and Egypt. But they’d need to give something to them or else no one has a reason to support them unless they have some victories they can point to.
As a retired Major-General explained on TV over here the other day, Hamas is a Insurrection Movement, which are made of 3 parts, the Political Side, the Military Side and Popular Support.
Want to destroy Hamas, destroy its popular support side.
The current indiscriminate bombing of Palestinians will never destroy it because not only does it increase the Popular Support for any Insurrection Movement against Israel, it also adds to the number of people who would join the military wing of such a movement (i.e. directly put their lives at risk), especially because for all the parroting of Israel’s “human shields” propaganda, what the people there see is Israel choosing to bomb and kill their family, so even those who detest Hamas will detest Israel much much more and with good reason.
Unless Israel is willing to commit a Nazi-sized Genocide (which I suspect its current leadership would do if they thought they could get away with, hence their talk of a “second Nakba”), the solution will never be more violence.
Israel really going for a “If there’s no witnesses, there’s no problem” approach and killing everybody.
They’re targetting and killing journalists (and were already doing so before this) and their families.
States murder journalists and their families has no other reason than to stop the truth from coming out, so taking out a couple of tens of thousand who they see as untermenschen to “tie up loose ends” is hardly going to weigh on their consciences.
We’ve learned that bombing only makes people more resolved to fight in every war in the 20th and 21st centuries. There’s no reason it would change now. You can’t bomb away ideas.
The Pro-Israel crowd will say it is all lies and Israel is really making good friends with all Palestinians then act all shocked that rockets keep flying from gaza at them. Bombing the shit out of Palestinians has worked SO well over the last many decades. Yet they figure ‘we just didn’t bomb hard enough’ to make them like us!
The current indiscriminate bombing of Palestinians
The only people indiscriminately bombing Palestinians are PIJ and Hamas. They spray and pray with rockets, hundreds of them have landed in Gaza.
Israel’s strikes are the most targeted fucking strikes you’ve ever seen a military do, and they actively warn the people in those buildings with everything from roof knocking to a phone call.
for all the parroting of Israel’s “human shields” propaganda, what the people there see is Israel choosing to bomb and kill their family, so even those who detest Hamas will detest Israel much much more and with good reason.
You call it propaganda, but it’s exactly what Hamas is doing, isn’t it?
When Israel calls you and tells you they’re going to bomb the building you’re in, and when, and Hamas tells you not to leave, how are you going to come away from that hating Israel more than Hamas?
When Hamas steals and hoards gasoline that it could use to run the power plant, the hospital generators, the desalination plants… when they dig up water pipes to fire as bombs… when PIJ fires a rocket that hits a hospital parking lot killing hundreds, you think they’re too stupid to follow that?
You think they don’t blame them for causing this war? They had a ceasefire and then they invaded Israel killing thousands of civilians, and they brought back hundreds of civilian hostages, you don’t think they can tell that’s an obvious casus belli?
Israel’s strikes are the most targeted fucking strikes you’ve ever seen a military do,
Are you high? https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/satellite-images-gaza-destruction/index.html
Flattening whole communities is as targeted as using a shotgun to kill a fly.
You call it propaganda, but it’s exactly what Hamas is doing, isn’t it?
You may need to look up ‘propaganda’.
Buddy, you haven’t been paying attention to what’s been going on recently have you? Also, a warning drop does nothing but give people time to piss themselves if you only give a hospital a few minutes to evacuate.
Israel’s strikes are the most targeted fucking strikes you’ve ever seen a military do, and they actively warn the people in those buildings with everything from roof knocking to a phone call.
That doesn’t even make sense. If the point is to destroy Hamas assets and people, there’s no sense in tipping them off about it. So either they’re doing that and destroying people’s homes for no reason, or they’re not actually doing that.
It’s not actually possible to take out military targets like that in civilian neighborhoods with air strikes in a “clean” way. Obviously the only reason they don’t go in on the ground with IDF soldiers if they actually have legitimate targets instead is because the lives of Palestinean civilians are less important than the lives of Israeli soldiers, and they know that air strikes don’t lead to any casualties on their side.
"Israel says “Hi civilian we’re about to bomb this building because a Hamas target is inside. Please leave so you are not hurt.”
Hamas responds with “Go stand on the roof.”
But your suggestion is that Israel is somehow the bad guy there?
You “know” that because the very people bombing civilians told you so.
Only a very special kind of person would trust killers when they provide unverifiable “justifications” for their killings that just so happen to blame somebody else and excuse their actions.
Yes, because people that care about not killing Innocents would say “why don’t we go in shoot just the terrorist instead of leveling the whole block?”
It shouldn’t be left to Israel but nobody wants to do it, so we get this cluster fuck. Other surrounding nations can help and take in Palestinian refugees/stamp out Hamas, but the truth is that they don’t actually care about Palestinians either.
but the truth is that they don’t actually care about Palestinians either.
They sure do. They care about keeping them in refugee camps, using Israel as a scapegoat for their own war crimes and other bullshit, refusing to let them work, often revoking their citizenship in the rare cases it’s been granted! Heaven forbid a third-generation descendant of a Palestinian immigrant be allowed to work in Jordan, or own a permanent home.
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza
Bibi isn’t interested in that.
Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
He’s openly calling for genocide.
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza. I hope the international community can come together to find a way. I definitely wouldn’t leave it to Israel lol.
Israel is going to try its best. Nobody else is going to touch this with a ten foot pole. Most of the international community isn’t even willing to condemn Hamas, let alone go in there and get rid of them. Israel literally calls them up in the buildings they’re going to bomb and says “please evacuate this building by this time!” You can’t make that shit up.
If Egypt or the UN wants to take care of Gaza after the war, and actually make sure they don’t get weapons, and actually de-radicalize them (current schools in Gaza are not great at deradicalization), you name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that. They didn’t blockade Gaza for fun, blockades are expensive. But burying the dead from the constant attacks of a Hamas with infinite weaponry is fucking worse.
You’ve lost the support of the international community and even the US is distancing itself from the approach you are taking. This is a fools errand to try to extract a part of a society by direct force (see Vietnam, Afghanistan <-two different super powers made that mistake). What this will be is an excuse to murder as judge, jury and executioner as you move to further subjugate a civilian population behind closed doors. Literal closed walls in Gaza’s case. These kids have grown up knowing nothing but what the adults tell them and looking at the walls that keep them in.
“You name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that” How about just releasing the Prisoners for the hostages and going home?
“We spoke bluntly and made it clear to the prime minister in no uncertain terms that a comprehensive deal based on the ‘everyone for everyone’ principle is a deal the families would consider, and has the support of all of Israel,” Meirav Leshem Gonen, mother of Romi Gonen, who was kidnapped from the Supernova dance festival, said on behalf of the families in a news conference following the meeting.
Netanyahu was asked about such a deal at his Saturday news conference, and acknowledged he discussed the option with the families.
“I think that elaborating on this will not help achieve our goal. In the meeting with the families, I felt emotionally helpless,” he said.
So maybe not everything. Please don’t judge Dan for not responding, He blocked me an hour ago as he didn’t like my response to the justification of the 3,000 children that have been bombed to death in Gaza.
edit: deleted two words I accidentally repeated
He probably blocked you because you argue in bad faith and lie about your historical examples - like pretending Vietnam wasn’t a war of two established, professional militaries just as Korea was.
“You name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that” How about just releasing the Prisoners for the hostages and going home?
This, for instance, is an insane proposition and you throw it out like it’s the obvious good choice.
Israel is going to try it’s best
News: Israel only catches or kills a dozen Hamas fighters but kills 8k citizen civilians with over 1k children under the rubble.
Bullshit.
- Israel has killed dozens of Hamas leaders, but way more fighters. There’s no way to know exactly how many, since Hamas doesn’t even pretend to put out numbers that separate civilians from combatants.
- The 8k number also comes from Hamas, the same people who said that 500 people died in the hospital explosion (and blamed it on Israel). Go see the estimates literally anybody else made. All of these numbers come from Hamas.
- That 8k number also includes all deaths, not just at the hands of Israel, but at the hands of PIJ and Hamas themselves. Hundreds of their rockets have landed in Gaza, and they’ve been known to execute their own. They really love to blame Israel for these deaths, though—not just in the case of the hospital when they can make up a specific cause, but in the cases you’ve never heard of where, oh, there’s rubble, what caused it, don’t worry.
The death of each Palestinian civilian is a tragedy. Hamas provoked the war, Hamas is killing as many of them as anybody. Israel is engaged in remarkably precise targeting of enemy combatants and places an entirely unprecedented effort into warning them when they’re about to strike.
This is urban warfare. This is what Hamas called for.
The first step to deradicalize them is to stop putting Palestinians in a concentration camp. Simple as.
What a strange concentration camp that was, where Palestinians were able to go into Israel to work every day, travel abroad, etc. Almost like most other national borders (except for Schengen), where you need a passport and maybe even a visa to enter. Or like the US, where you’re not allowed in if they even suspect you’re going to work. Also, let’s not forget the terrorists that constantly threaten to kill your citizens. Would you let them into your house?
The debacle prompted criticism even from allies who said Netanyahu had facilitated Hamas’s grip on Gaza as part of a strategy to divide Palestinians.
“Since coming to power in 2009, Netanyahu has built up Hamas as an alternative to the Palestinian Authority,” wrote Yoav Limor, the military affairs correspondent for Israel Hayom, a normally pro-Netanyahu newspaper. “He was warned countless times that this was a dangerous plan: instead of bolstering the pragmatic elements, he strengthened those that will never recognize Israel’s existence.”
Even normally pro-Israeli news outlets are condemning what is happening. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/israeli-tanks-on-outskirts-of-gaza-city-with-key-road-cut
How are they calling to warn anyone? The entire communications infrastructure is so compromised that ambulances are literally just driving towards the sound of explosions rather than being directed.
There’s a lot of ways, I’ve seen leaflet drops, radio (windup fm radios are widely used), telephone calls (mobile) and drones with speakers being used but I’m sure they’re also using other methods too
Well, Gaza’s internet and phone services are up again, but if you’d been paying attention, you know that, in addition, they’ve also been using roof knocking, and also dropping flyers, and every other fucking thing they can manage to warn civilians on every time scale. If you have any other idea how Israel should disable rocket facilities, feel free.
If Egypt or the UN wants to take care of Gaza after the war, and actually make sure they don’t get weapons, and actually de-radicalize them (current schools in Gaza are not great at deradicalization), you name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that.
Basically turn them into a mini West bank; people with no means to defend themselves, constantly getting attacked by settlers and the police. Make them believe that this is normal and that they shouldn’t defend themselves on your way out.
There are no settlements in Gaza. In 2005, there were no settlements, there was no blockade, there was nothing but an opportunity for peace, and then, they elected Hamas.
If you’re afraid that Egypt or the UN is going to invite settlers in, that Egyptian police or the UN police are going to attack them, you might want to reevaluate your world view.
You could only ACTUALLY get rid of Hamas by getting rid of the current Israeli leadership, because even if you actually knocked out Hamas themselves, the Israeli leadership will just gin up a replacement Hamas to be their strawman in Gaza until they’ve bombed their way into settlerizing Gaza same way they’re doing to the West Bank.
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza.
There is a way, it’s just excruciatingly difficult and has no chance of happening.
People will excess wealth will need to give up some of that wealth so others can have more.
For example, increasing immigration limits to the US and giving refugees the means to contribute to society, such as housing and utilities. It shouldn’t just be the US, either. All nations with excess can pitch in to help. This can be done, but the hand-sitters among us are already chomping at the bit to tell us why it can’t.
you deny what “palestinians” have given themselves generationally to achieve with hamas, pij, hezbollah, the plo. you deny “palestinians” their personhood in their singular terrorist fight against jews, and for the destruction of israel, the communal refusal to live in peace, when you think there is any daylight at all whatsoever between the “palestinian” community and jew raping, slaughtering, and burning islamic terrorists.
who do you think makes up these groups, whose sons, and husbands and grandfathers do you think these fucking terrorist animals are, where do you think they sleep at night, whose table do you think they eat at?
amazing
Each of these individual elements is not in and of itself fascist, but you have to worry when they’re all grouped together, when honest conservatives are lured into fascism by people who tell them, “Look, it’s an existential fight. I know you don’t accept everything we do. You don’t accept every doctrine. But your family is under threat. Your family is at risk. So without us, you’re in peril.” Those moments are the times when we need to worry about fascism.
I wonder what percentage of their rapidly diminishing military might is being used to block foreigners from leaving? seems like a poor allocation of resources… unless there’s something they dont want the foreigners to tell the outside world?
It’s not like they ever had a chance of winning considering their definition of winning is driving the Jews into the sea. Their whole purpose is to fuck shit up and cause maximum damage and this makes sense in that context.
that’s their endgame? how does that work when they’re surrounded on all sides (counting the sea)?
If you want an actual answer they want the Islamic world to unite and kill everyone else, it’s been a pretty constant theme for a while now from middle Eastern terror groups.
That’s why the fundamentalists in change (and not living in Gaza) wanted to commit an attack Israel could not ignore, nation’s like Saudi Arabia and Jordan we’re getting on too well with Israel and that would ruin their chances for a middle Eastern caliphate…
Pretty sure their definition of winning is not getting genocide by said Jews
From the footage at Rafah, feels like hundreds of foreign nationals are gathered waiting an okay from Israel and Egypt. I don’t see WHY Hamas would even care to stop Palestinian Americans from leaving to the states.
Hamas intends to use those people as leverage to get their home countries to exert pressure on Israel. Hamas is basically taking them hostage.
Is there any source for that idea, or that this is actually happening? The only source for this article are US officials, who are full-throated allies of Israel, so there likely could be a bias. Telegraph is widely known as biased.
It’s not like that stops Israel from butchering civilians anyway, so again how does this work?
To downvoters: It’s a fact that Israel is killing civilians while trying to kill Hamas fighters. After killing nearly 8.5k civilians, they got maybe a couple of dozen of Hamas fighters “dead”, but how would they even be able to confirm it when they aren’t in Gaza? It’s a known indisputable fact that the so-called “human shield” used by Hamas has never stopped and will never stop Israel from shooting or bombing the civlian population.
But again, it’s because “proximity shielding” is something countries made up so they can do genocide or accomplish whatever urban warfare goal while at the same time not giving a single fuck about the lives of civilians or hostages in that area.
They don’t see the Palestinians, they see the Americans, and Americans are hostages and also decadents who deserve being knocked down a peg
Right now, the Israelis are bombing the Rafah crossing and blaming Hamas for the dead.
Hamas doesn’t need to do anything. All they have to do is say nobody’s getting out, which means the IDF can assume anyone running towards the exit is a terrorist making an attack. I think any foreign nationals that would ever travel to Gaza know better than to approach Israeli forces for help.
If there’s anyone that doesn’t want the outside world to know what’s up, ask the folks who recently cut off internet access to Gaza. Who was it? It wasn’t Hamas.
Do you seriously think Israel shut off internet to hide what’s inside? Do you know satellites exist? Do you know cameras exist? How in the world was that preventing anyone from seeing into Gaza?
“palestianians”. use. human. fucking. shields. fuck. fuck. fuck. fuck. fuck.
Israel will strike an area and kill hundreds of people. If there are males 16-30 killed they will say they were militants often, and that the civilians were collateral damage due to the use of proximity shielding. They do not go in and verify whether or not the people killed were militants. This is an age old tactic, the US would do the same to shift blame for atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan.
not incorrect, but it’s a common tactic used in Asymmetrical Warfare that is seen in the Levant when one side dwarf the other in conventional military size and strength
is it honorable? no, but it one of the few tactics hamas has in operating against Israel
As an atheist, I’ve generally avoided that area of the world. I’m quite happy to not be directly involved in this stupidity.
cowards like you said the same thing while they were shipping jews to auschwitz in cattle cars. nothing ever changes.
No need to ship em anywhere if you have them all surrounded in a prison called Gaza and drop death on em. ^Say’s the coward that complains about people being able to see your racist and fascistic posts after you block them. “why can’t I say these horrific things without anyone dissenting!”
Nazi Germany was overwhelmingly Christian. The athiests of the time were fighting or contributing to the war efforts of their country just like every other person was. There just wasn’t too many openly atheistic people due to the discrimination at the time.
Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
Who’s doing an auschwitz again?
“Israel blocks anyone and anything from going into or out of Gaza.”
The Rafah Border Crossing is the only crossing point between Egypt and the Gaza Strip. It lies on the international border that was confirmed by the 1979 Egypt–Israel peace treaty and the 1982 Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula. The Rafah Border Crossing can only be used for the passage of persons. All goods traffic must use the Kerem Shalom border crossing on the Israel-Gaza border.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Gaza_border
The Rafah Land Port became the primary border crossing between Egypt and Gaza, managed by the Israel Airports Authority until Israel had dismantled its settlements in Gaza on 11 September 2005 as part of a disengagement plan. It subsequently became the task of the European Union Border Assistance Mission Rafah (EUBAM) to monitor the crossing.
In the 2023 Israel–Hamas war that began in October, the crossing was again effectively sealed. The Egyptian government refused to allow either Gazans or foreign nationals to exit Gaza via the Rafah crossing, despite intensive international efforts to secure a window of time for the Rafah crossing to open to foreigners who want to exit the Strip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing
The Philadelphi Route, also called Philadelphi Corridor, is a narrow strip of land, 14 km (8.699 miles) in length, situated along the entirety of the border between Gaza Strip and Egypt. Under the provisions of the Egypt–Israel peace treaty of 1979, it was established as a buffer zone controlled and patrolled by Israeli forces. One purpose of the Philadelphi Route was to prevent the movement of illegal materials (including weapons and ammunition) and people between Egypt and the Gaza Strip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphi_Route
Tl;Dr: Europe, Egypt and Israel all play a part in managing that border. The only party that has zero control over this border is Gaza.
Oh damn, I just looked at a map, and Gaza also borders the ocean. Clearly people and goods can flow freely in/out of Gaza that way also. My mistake.
But what about the Egyptian side, is Israel in your opinion blocking that too?
Is the Telegraph a good source for info on this?
