They talk about a few causes, but this is the gist of it for anyone who doesn’t want to click:
Researchers cited the pandemic as the biggest factor in the widening gender gap; it took a heavier toll on men. Unintentional injuries and poisonings (mostly drug overdoses), accidents and suicide were other contributors.
There are also studies that show men are less likely to got to a doctor or they go to late. In part that is because most male bodies tend to take longer before heavy symptoms are coming up but then they progress faster.
It has something to do with differences in immune system of men and women. When for example a man and a woman are infected with the same amount of viruses the women’s immune system will react faster so she gets symptoms earlier and goes to the doctor earlier as well. The man won’t have any symptoms but then the infection will suddenly progress fast when a critical amount of viruses is reached.
It’s of course more complex and there are tons of studies about it, but I think that’s something to keep in mind “in practice”.
This comes on top of the gender stereotypes which make some men shun the doctor.
You have any sources for that? Never heard of this before; sounds interesting.
There are different studies depending on the pathogen or diesease. But this one describes some of the more general effects I mean:
Sex differences in immune responses
Paywalled, but it provides a good list of additional sources via it’s references and list of articles that cite it: The influence of sex and gender on the immune response
That’s because in addition to the disinformation, many men also have to do the macho thing: https://youtu.be/1chYhsp3NRw
I warned my ex to be safe when the biology of it was just beginning to be understood back in March/April 2020, and his exact response was, “It’s not like I’m going to die.” He says, occupying every high risk category except “immunocompromised.”
So yeah, apparently.
I remember when I was growing up my parents were always saying “son you better kill yourself if you want to get married.” And on wrestling night, Randy Savage used to stand up on the turnbuckles and shout “AFTER THIS, MACHO MAN IS GONNA BLOW HIS BRAINS OUT.” He was a big role model for me.
Fuck Joe Rogan. At some level I want to say “if you are really going to take advice from Joe Rogan and other idiots online, Darwin will just be checking off posthumous boxes,” but I’ve seen too many family members be trapped and warped by social media into believing garbage that I realize it’s the fault of the system. People have always profited off of needless human death, it’s way worse though when it’s a podcaster spewing garbage.
Americans also just generally live shorter lives than people in other developed countries:
Men trend more conservative than women overall (6 in 10 committed conservatives are men - pew) so more of them probably fell for the disinformation and denialism during the pandemic. Yes, we know that Republicans died more from COVID, to the tune of 15% more excess deaths.
i wonder if this is correlated with the loneliness increase / the loneliness gap. if you’re a guy, lonely, prone to depression, in a crumbling post-capitalist society that’s getting more malignant by the day…how much will to live can you have
Nah, the older men I know either won’t go to a doctor because they didn’t need them when they were younger, are scared of them, can man up through whatever pain they have, whatever. These are folks with Medicare, so at least access to doctors. These are all married men with kids. They don’t go until they’re literally forced to and by then, it’s already too late and they just die.
I won’t go to a doctor because my experience with doctors is they tell me I’m imagining it, refuse to order any tests, then send me a bill for hundreds of dollars for the privilege of hearing them gaslight me about my symptoms.
I won’t open up emotionally to people for similar reasons: experience of it going wrong.
Sounds all too familiar. I blame the pain pendulum swinging too far the other way. Doctors do a he’ll of a lot more then manage pain… but to a patient pain is usually the number one reason they are in front of the doctor. When the doctor will not even write the smallest script to alleviate their pain, or even worse accuses them of being a drug seeker either directly or with their indirect language (that we can all read through) men tend to give up. If you can’t even help me with the easiest part, or are going to become adversarial about it then what’s the point of going to the doctor? Obviously that question is rhetorical…
They really need to loosen their grip on low level pain meds and really start diverting people into pain management programs when necessary. This opioid backlash has only hurt the general public. Pain doesn’t just disappear if you don’t treat it, this just leads more people into buying diverted scripts, becoming their own doctor and then eventually using fentanyl pills or just “heroin”.
I don’t go to the doctor because even with insurance it’s too expensive. The whole billing system is complicated as fuck and makes it impossible to predict how much an appointment will cost. Then on top of that if you need more tests or specialists that’s a huge pain in the ass. My mom got to the point that managing my grandparents healthcare shit was basically a full time job. Nooo thanks I’ll just off myself if I get to that point.
It’s less acceptable for men to open up, it’s one of the toxic masculinity traits that harms men the most.
I think as men get older, we also tend to have less close friends than women. Or at least it sure seems to be that way for many. Saw it with my dad before we lost him last year. I see it with my brother and myself. It has brought me and my brother somewhat closer in that we text and talk more than we used to despite not living close and being pretty different personalizes.
I have a few close friends, but not male ones. I had to stop working at a young age and I feel that is when I stopped having a connection to any sort of male bonding.
But I agree, that it still seems unacceptable to open up, share feelings, and be vulnerable as a man. Probably why I have mostly had women as close friends most of my adult life.
So when my woman gets less attracted to me as a result of me opening up, that’s toxic masculinity at work?
Men and women seem to make friends differently. Men have more of a tendency to make friends through work. The change in work culture can cause these to collapse more easily. It’s particularly harsh at retirement. They not only lose their day-to-day reason to go on, but the friendship net that should help them.
By comparison, women tend to make friends independently of work. This makes their friendships more tolerant to changing jobs, or leaving work. Women also seem to be better at maintaining friendships at a distance.
Lastly, there is the (slightly controversial) glass floor. It’s the inverse of the glass ceiling. Both men and women have a bias to help women in distress over men. This makes it a lot more likely that someone will step in to help, before the downward spiral gets too deep. This is partially why men make up a large proportion of the homeless.
I’m pretty surprised by the friend-making info you shared. Do you have a source? I’d like to read more.
It isn’t. When you look at studies they reveal that loneliness is very prevalent in multiple groups of people and in general. In some studies older women are the most lonely group.
Gender and Age Differences in Loneliness: Evidence for People without and with Disabilities
There is much activity by anti-feminists in particular to push the narrative that men are the most lonely group and that of course the reason are women. This is heavily pushed by media because people seemingly like that idea more than that gender stereotypes targeting men are potentially more at fault.
Women are better at expressing that are lonely. From what I understand it’s unclear who is more lonely because men don’t admit to being lonely. It’s probably more important to not argue about and just be aware that old people are often very lonely.
I agree. But I think to increase life expectancy in men it’s important to look into the diverse causes instead of letting the discussion being guided by anti-feminists who really do not seem to put men’s health and happiness first but rather their ideology.
Harping on one potentially non-deciding factor and leaving those factors that are known to be important behind because they don’t fit their ideology is not helping men.
I want to kill myself because I hate myself, not because of capitalism. This kind of doomer shit doesn’t fucking help anyone. The absolute hopeless outlook of people on social media is pathological at this point.
You’re all loved. You’re valid. We’re not gonna let anyone murder you en masse. Things will get better. It might be slower than we’d like at times, but nobody has been able to stop progress yet.
The fact that so many men are dying young should be it’s own issue, full stop. There is no reason to try to start a competition over it, or to try to force the topic to change to something else. This IS important, and it should be treated as such. Gain some empathy.
Did women get the rights to vote and wear pants just because they secretly wanted to? No. They fought against the standards of the time, and they had support from other groups. They didn’t have that support just because of their genetics, but also because other people had some goddamned empathy. We need to move past the “fuck you, I got mine” as a society if we EVER want things to be good overall. Nothing really excludes you from doing that, at least not if you actually care about others. I don’t even really care if someone has a damned disco ball down there, it’s horrible that people feel the NEED to live in a way that cuts their life short.
If you hear that a large group of people is dying young, the correct response is to figure out why, and solve it. The correct response is not to turn it into a competition or to blame the people who died so young. The correct response is to try to find a solution, and to possibly literally save lives. You are a bad person if you are happily ok with this going on. If you hate half of the population so badly that you don’t care about their death, you have no business telling that population how to live or how to be happy.
It’s tragic really. Imo, this is yet another situation where tradition and societal pressures kill people. Don’t be miserable to try to make dead people happy. Dead people who cared so little, that they didn’t put anything in place to help you in the future. Dead people who only cared about what they personally experienced during their time on earth. Dead people who had a very large hand in causing most of the pain that these people are feeling today.
Dudes reading this, I know it might be difficult depending on where you are, but please check up on your friends. Don’t tease them when they open up about serious things, and please listen to them talking about things they love. Change starts with you, and it starts with me. We can make a new future, and we don’t have to keep trying to please the people who will never see it.
Try to not be too hard on yourself, you’re probably doing the best that you can. Your best might “look like” 20% one day, and 80% the next, but it will still be YOUR 100%. You are only human, and no one is perfect. Please keep up the hobbies that you love, and always look towards better and brighter things. Some days that might be looking forwards to Friday, and other days that might be discovering a new passion. Love unconditionally, and build yourself and others up relentlessly. The odds that you specifically exist are so miniscule that it could almost be considered a miracle.
Even if it might not feel like it today, you are important. You have value. No one else out there has your exact combination of attributes, and only you can fill that role. Even if you’re in your 50’s, you can still pursue your passions and dreams. Many of the people who poop on your ambitions are people who regret not fulfilling their own. Don’t listen to angry people for live advice, as their methods are the best way to stay angry.
Please keep doing your best, and best wishes to y’all. It’s tough out there and I can’t imagine how tough it would feel to go at it alone. Strive for a better tomorrow, and never give up. Giving up is the only way to guarantee that this continues.
The fact that so many men are dying young should be it’s own issue, full stop. There is no reason to try to start a competition over it, or to try to force the topic to change to something else. This IS important, and it should be treated as such.
Did women get the rights to vote and wear pants just because they secretly wanted to? No.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Tbh I only mentioned it because I saw other comments trying to turn the post into yet another game “who has it worse” or “who can we blame so we don’t have to put any effort into fixing it”.
I also saw some toxic comments stating that men should just pull themselves out of it. I brought up the rights situation because it was another scenario that required more than just one group of people to make any proper change. We’ve done it before, why not again?
Expecting a group that is already struggling with life to suddenly magic themselves better is unrealistic at best. So, I tried to remind people that working together would be better.
You’re fine, it was overly verbose for my taste/consumption, but informative. When I see that much verbosity I’m suspect that it’s actually just a ChatGPT-type generated text/comment.
To the point, I was just friendly teasing, by emphasizing via italics, the fact that you were talking about something that shouldn’t be done, and then actually doing the thing you said you shouldn’t be doing, all in the same comment.
or to try to force the topic to change to something else.
Seems like this is the point. No double standards.
Competition? What do women have to do with this? Who is happily ok with this going on? Who are you talking to?
There are a decent number of people just in these comments that are willing to just dismiss this as ‘toxic masculinity’ and move on. They think toxic masculinity is something entirely created and maintained by men. It is not. Many men have stories of women holding them to toxic masculine standards.
That’s fine. My job as a man is to die first. Is that toxic masculinity? Yes. Is it stupid? Also yes. But I’d rather die on my lawnmower than acknowledge feelings. I will go out 6 years early like a man.
I will work 12hr days and sacrifice my health for my family. Toxic maybe, but my duty as a man.
I’ll eat that 12oz sirloin and wash it down with beer and whiskey every night. Just so someone doesn’t call me gay. Doesn’t matter how many dudes I fuck in the ass!
Get that umbrella away from me faaaag.
You know I really question how many children are gonna grow up in the world basically fatherless, or with an absent father, because there’s this idea that the man has to be the one sacking everything they have in order to “put food on the table”. Gone for most of the day, devoid of energy when they come home, meat on the chopping block. I wonder how many kids would pick a better house, brand name foods, more toys, over more time spent with their dad.
This was my dad growing up. (Although my mom worked a lot at her job, too.) He’s since expressed his regret over it, and the sad thing is that at the time we were all perfectly happy for him to work all the time because he was just such a difficult person. But now that he’s retired and had a chance to breathe and heal, he is such a different person and I love spending time with him. We are both cantankerous weirdos with ADHD, and our weekends together are often spent doing projects, losing track of half our tools, and then comparing stories about the dumbest things our impaired attention span has caused us to do.
Basically, he just needed a chance to be HUMAN.
Ironic that the thread is about men dying on average younger than women, and the majority of the responses are people completely ignoring that fact and instead just taking an opportunity to negatively stereotype men so they can shit on them collectively.
Men typically die younger than women across the world. Men tend to be higher risk takers and tend to be less social due to toxic masculinity. The strength of your social network is a huge factor in anyone’s lifespan/quality of life. Then in the west you have the “manosphere” (Joe Rorgan, Andrew Tate etc.) as a very popular men’s place for socializing, which is isolating in it’s own right and drives things that are, once again, already predominant traits in men like going to see doctors less and listening to their advice less.
These are the things I’m seeing brought up and they’re all real known phenomenon. Where’s the lie?
"Men die earlier because of toxic masculinity "
That is victim blaming, plain and simple.
Apply your logic to rape and women wearing revealing clothing and then tell me that your statement isn’t disgraceful and sickening.
