Only as valued as their productivity.
That is a big part of it.
When the first question you are asked for decades when meeting someone is “What do you do?” it gets ingrained that your only value is what you do.
Add in the fact that men hitting that age now have basically never received any positive reaction for expressing any emotions or vulnerability and usually outright been mocked for doing so and it is no wonder they are are hard group to reach…
And they’re all totally socially isolated to boot. How the hell do you make friends as an adult?
As with most things, the hardest part is the first step: you have to find a community to join. It can be anything, but senior centers are greater resources for older people that they unfortunately don’t take enough advantage of. My parents found a seniors’ program at a local college and started taking classes with people their age, which created an entirely new friend group for them. You just have to find a group of people doing something you enjoy and the relationships will likely form without much effort after that, provided you don’t have crippling social anxiety or something else that makes social interaction difficult. Point is, once you get the ball rolling, momentum takes over; the hardest part is getting it (i.e. yourself) moving.
You need a group that’s small enough to allow for personal interaction, but large enough that there’s enough people that you’re more likely to find ones you click with. It’s easy enough to do online - a lot of people meet in games like MMOs and on social media sites. You already share a common interest, and if you click you can expand your friendship outside of that immediate context. Even within the context, you get friends and community.
Real world kinds of places can include things like a men’s choir or a community theater group if that’s your demographic. Those can lead to Saturday brunches and such. There’s also places like dog parks where you can hang out with other dog owners, and sports groups like bowling and ultimate that have various levels of serious vs fun. There’s also a lot of volunteering opportunities.
Some groups can be cliques that can make it harder to get into at first, and just like in dating you can’t let a negative experience turn you off from the whole scene.
I’ve seen a few people complain about the question “what do you do?” over the years, and I think it’s pretty telling that most people seem to interpret that as “what is your job?”
For me, my job is a footnote to my life, it’s not something I’m overly proud of, if I woke up rich tomorrow I’d never go back to work, it’s just how I fund the rest of my lifestyle.
I tend to answer that question with my hobbies, things I’m working on, trips I’m planning, etc
Sort of a double-edged sword is that I do actually work a pretty interesting job that people really want to hear about when they find out what I do, and I’d really rather talk about the other things I do. Probably the one thing I miss about when I was a random schmuck working a shitty warehouse job, I didn’t have to talk about work outside of work as much
Sort of a double-edged sword is that I do actually work a pretty interesting job that people really want to hear about when they find out what I do, and I’d really rather talk about the other things I do.
Yeah but what do you do for work doe?
When the first question you are asked for decades when meeting someone is “What do you do?” it gets ingrained that your only value is what you do.
Exactly. I stopped asking that question because I don’t wanna be asked that anymore. I ask other guys what their hobby(ies) is(are).
I’ve always taken that question as a form of trying to find common interests. If you answered it with your hobbies, it would fulfill the same purpose which is getting conversation started.
If you asked me “well, how much do you make?” that would be way more pointed towards “productivity”.
I still cant remember the last compliment I got that wasn’t about my work.
I can partially speak to this from the inside so to speak. I’m not that old, but I had a heart attack and open heart surgery at the end of 2018 and complication after complication through all of 2019.
All of which puts me at greater risk for depression and suicide.
Just when I was medically cleared to go back to the office, we shut down for covid and I haven’t been back since.
I started looking for a support group for heart attack/open heart surgery survivors and it was far, far more difficult than I thought.
Plenty of support groups for other conditions, plenty of support groups that advertised as women only, I really couldn’t find anything that accepted men.
I didn’t need a “mens only” group, just someone who wouldn’t turn me away due to my gender.
I finally reached out to one of the women’s groups going “Look, I know I’m not your demo, but I hope you can direct me…”
They set me up with a national org, https://mendedhearts.org/ who had an unbranded chapter in my area and I got to talk to people in my situation, it helped, but it was not easy getting there.
There were other problems during lockdown, I became a victim of domestic violence, against which I was helpless due to my medical conditions.
Same problem. No real support for male victims of domestic violence either.
The police directed me to various mental health agencies, for both myself and my wife, but this was peak covid and NONE of them called us back. NONE. Not even a “sorry, we aren’t taking new patients”, they just completely ghosted us.
My wife finally found a therapist who would “see” her remotely, which was a condition of our staying married, and things did get better.
But after all that… it was really dumb luck. Other folks aren’t as lucky.
I just want to say something about the mental health practitioners not calling back:
It’s the worst part about getting help is how hard it is to find. This is true for all folks, too. So, I just want to provide a quick how-to because I’ve been through that particular step 5 or 6 times and it’s only slightly less annoying when you know the best steps to take. Not saying you didn’t do all these things, and not saying you shoulda known if you didn’t, but this is for anyone reading this. This also only applies for US. Idk how other countries do it, but it’s probably better than this.
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UnInsured? Skip step 2 and 3
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Find your health care card. Call the number(s) on the back. Reach a human (never easy). Ask for a list of mental healthcare practitioners that are within x miles of CITY. use biggest nearby city for best results. Or just say STATE if your state is small enough. Regional accuracies may vary.
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Go to psychologytoday.com or google around for another mental healthcare finder. Use the list you got from your insurer.
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Search by your conditions at a site line psychologytoday.com. curate as long a list of options as you can for your area.
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Mass email to all of them. “Hi. I’m dealing with SYMPTOMS, I have this healthcare. I was wondering if you were accepting new patients.” Send.
Within 1 week, if you have no response, re email all of them and say you got no response and you’re really trying to find help, and if they could give you recommendations, that would be great.
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Setup appointments. First sessions suck. And it takes a solid 3 sessions to know for sure if someone is a possible fit.
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If they’re not a good fit, you go back to your list. This repetition is exhausting, especially because when you finally reach out for help, you’re at a breaking point, and all of this feels like too much already. Keep going.
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Hopefully you find someone that’s a good fit through this process. It sucks. Hang in there.
Yeah, the Psychology Today site was the one the police directed me to and the one who ghosted us the hardest. :(
This is all great advice. The issue I in particular have and a lot of other guys probably do as well is that I only ever get like 4-5 sessions with any therapist before they basically start booting me out the door. The issue is that per society I’m perfectly functional. I work, I pay my bills, I take good enough care of myself that I function. I’ve never attempted suicide (although stats show most guys only attempt is the sucsessful one.) I’m a low priority. I’m not a statistically high suicide risk. I’m not at risk of becomming homeless. I’m not being abused or abusing drugs. I’m already receiving medication that kind of works. All in all my situation is not dire so naturally the people who are in a more dire situation get prioritized and there are a lot of people in more dire situations.
I have enough of a medical background to know how triage works and I get that that is what is happening but it still just sucks. No place will actually keep me on long enough for me to improve at all and even if I do start to improve I get dumped at the first slightest sign of improvement. So I’m just stuck perpetually “functioning”. It’s kind of like the wellfare cliff. I’m doing just well enough that there’s no long term help available.
I read your response with interest and empathy. However, I feel it’s important to address a few misconceptions for the benefit of anyone reading this.
Firstly, the idea that mental health practitioners prioritize patients based on their societal functionality or perceived risk level is not accurate. In the United States, mental health professionals are bound by ethical guidelines that stress the importance of client-centered care. This means that treatment decisions should be based on individual needs and therapeutic goals, not on a patient’s external life circumstances like job stability or living situation.
If you’ve repeatedly been discharged from therapy after only a few sessions, this is concerning and not a standard practice in mental health care. Therapists are trained to provide ongoing support, and decisions to conclude therapy should ideally be mutual and based on progress and goals, not on arbitrary measures of functionality.
Also, the concept of ‘triage’ in mental health doesn’t operate the same way as in emergency medical settings. While it’s true that individuals in crisis might need immediate attention, this doesn’t mean others are deemed ‘low priority.’ Everyone’s mental health needs are important, and a good therapist understands this.
If you or anyone else feels that your therapy is being prematurely concluded or that you’re not getting the depth of support you need, it’s crucial to bring this up with your therapist. If the issue persists, seeking a second opinion or a different therapist might be necessary. It’s important to find a therapist who resonates with your needs and provides the required level of support.
While your experiences are valid and unfortunate, they are not reflective of standard mental health practice. I encourage anyone seeking therapy to advocate for their needs and keep searching for a therapist who offers the right support and commitment.
Men can help each other and SHOULD help each other. Women’s groups exist because women recognized issues and organized themselves to help each other. This is why women’s DV shelters exist, for example. (BTW, women’s DV shelters may help men in need, there are arrangements that can be made to help but keep women and kids separated for their mental health and safety.)
Men can do the same thing and should do the same thing. Perhaps growing that sense of community and learning how to help others will build the social support that men seem to be lacking. But you men have to do it collectively yourself - no one “somebody” will do it for you.
I hope you are doing better these days. (Edit): I do not expect you personally to be able to do the hard work of organizing a DV shelter. This is why it is so important for men as a class to work together to support each other too.
I seriously appreciate all of the points you’re making, but the idea of men and women as cohesive social units here might not be realistic or helpful, especially for issues affecting sub-groups. Sometimes the people actively working to improve something are fighting an uphill battle against societal expectations and/or larger portions of their own group who don’t recognize it as an issue. I’m sure you know that doesn’t make it any less valid.
thats good and all but am I the only man who can pretty much only connect with women, on an emotional level?
I’ve had some good male friends but expecting them to understand or relate is very difficult.
It’s not especially surprising to hear. Women are raised their whole lives to play emotional support with everyone.
Which is also why all their friends invariably turn into unrequited love: they’re just treating their guy friend identically to how they treat their women friends, but the guy’s never received the basic decency of consideration unless it was romantic.
But men are trained to problem solve whatever they can’t stuff down and ignore, aren’t they? And from what I’ve heard, hanging out generally prohibits anything emotionally heavy?
They’re logically in the same position you are. I would find it hard to believe at least one person among them doesn’t relate. It would make more sense to me to wonder if they just…have no idea how to be supportive. A distressing number of grown men can’t even put a name to their feelings beyond “sad” and “pissed off.”
What do they do if you just…tell them you feel like that? A friend who doesn’t care to address what you’re going through or to rectify that kind of relationship disconnect when it’s brought up isn’t really a friend. Maybe an acquaintance at best.
In my experience as the female friend, no, this is common. However, perhaps you should ask yourself why this is. Men as a whole class in our society do not seem able to connect emotionally and empathically with each other because they haven’t learned how to. You can (as a group) learn to do this, but you collectively need to decide you want to and to act.
Women’s groups exist because women recognized issues and organized themselves to help each other. This is why women’s DV shelters exist, for example.
Isn’t this essentially victim blaming and overlooks the very real societal issues and trama that hinders men getting support? You know funding, not being believed by both sexes, lack of awareness, society just not generally caring about men, etc
No. Women for a very long time were not considered fully realized humans in a legal sense. Hell, women couldn’t have bank accounts separate from their husbands until the 1970s.
My point is that women were victims and not even fully recognized legal entities and they STILL decided they wanted to help themselves; they organized themselves; and made progress on women’s issues.
If “society” doesn’t believe men or care about men, well, who is it with those negative attitudes? Society is about 50% women and 50% men. Seems to me a lot of men are not believing men as well as any women not believing men, given the current landscape. You belong to one of those groups. As a member of your class, you can be energized to make change.
No one is going to be an advocate for you (or your class) as much as you yourself. That’s not victim blaming, that is telling you how to actualize change in the world.
The pain that comes with that is just phenomenal and there’s no good treatment for it either. :(
Societies that have been created around the concept that your life is worth as much as the value you produce. People are deeply ingrained with the idea that if you aren’t part of the production line then you may as well die and get out the way for the next cog.
To this day, this mentality still benefits the higher up in those societies.
That’s not just an idea - its physical reality. You can’t get your physical needs met in old age if you didn’t win the lotto. Suicide is the retirement plan for most of us non-boomers.
They’re gonna be shocked when they see the generation without kids and with unstable retirement funds gets too old to care for themselves. Suicide rates are going to explode.
Somewhat related, but I learned today that Phil Shea who worked as the prop master on the office, died by suicide earlier this week, he was 62. He had a family and friends who loved him, but clearly wasn’t speaking to anyone about what was really going on in his head. Older guys tend to be more closed up about speaking up
Cuz society mocks and looks down upon men who open up and talk. There’s very little room for error being a man.
Every time I’ve opened up it’s been ignored at best and ridiculed at worst. I just stopped.
Thankfully this is changing… I see a clear divide in attitudes in my workplace between the boomers nearing retirement, and the new kids (Gen Z) that are coming in fresh out of college. And all I can say is: good riddance. Boomers are fucking toxic, but the Gen Z kids see right through that bullshit.
As an old guy (well old enough) I understand the sentiment. We are the providers, the protectors, the ones that aren’t supposed to show weaknesses or vulnerabilities. As an older gen x’er we weren’t taught how to talk about our feelings. It can be tough for sure.
For those who don’t know, this is the other end of the toxic masculinity spectrum - the cultural idea that there is a certain way men are supposed to act, and we’re perceived as weak or effeminate if we don’t. We don’t allow (or aren’t allowed to) ourselves to express our emotions in a healthy way, so we bottle them up until the stress either kills us, or we kill ourselves.
Watching my Dad decline in his later years was really tough, the man I had known my entire life just fell apart month by month, week by week until he was just a shell of a person. I don’t know when it happened, but the person I had known my whole life had already died before his body died later on. Seeing what I saw over the course of years as he declined, I would’ve completely understood if he had committed suicide well before. It would’ve been shocking and hard to take, but if he realized what was happening, felt himself slipping away, I wonder if he hadn’t at least considered it. He retired a year before he died at 63 and never really got to enjoy his retirement.
The capitalists tortured your father out of your father month by month, week by week, until only a shell, no longer productive, was cut loose to die as it was no longer useful to them.
That is what the capitalists do to us while they live large and pat themselves on the back for it.
Are you deadass using suicide as a stage to spew agitprop? You should feel ashamed of yourself, this is beyond ghoulish.
Well when suicide rates are at an 80-year high, while the lack of a social safety net continues to deny people the dignity of life after work… well it’s not a huge leap.
It wrong to say it’s capitalism, since every avenue of governance is plagued by the same monopolization of power and wealth, but when capitalism is held as closely by some as their religious beliefs; and these same beliefs are manipulated so as to convince people to vote against the construction of said social safety net… well. again, not a huge leap.
Ah yes, never “the time” to talk about this work camp of a supposed society, especially when the suffering of its victims is brought up.
I’m ghoulish to cope with the absurdity of what we are coerced into doing to ourselves. Others cope by pretending there’s nothing wrong, even that they love propagating this exploitation/value maximization trap.
I’m not using this person’s father as an agitprop. That would imply I have reasonable hope for change for the better in our times. There is not. Too far captured, too far propagandized. That said, one thing I won’t let them have is my silent, obedient consent as they toss their dead capital batteries without a thought after spending most of their very real lives in service to running up their ego scores that have no meaningful impact on their already gluttonous lifestyles. If that makes me the bastard in your eyes, so be it, I’m a bastard if it makes you happy. I’m the bad guy.
It’s been studied. Books have been written about alienation and isolation in capitalism.
Saw this happen to my both my grandfathers, one died around 60 and the other around 80. Even the 60yo one, watching the mental decline was heartbreaking. Being left with literally nothing, losing your memories while you lose control of other parts of your body, these men were long gone long before they passed. Nothing in this world scares me like aging with dimentia does. You literally lose the person, sometimes completely, before they even die and you gotta sit there and be strong for them knowing that the slow desent will come for you too, and thats only if you’re lucky enough to get that old. It’s just not fair for anyone and there’s scarcely any dignity in death.
I feel myself heading this way. So much of my identity is wrapped up in what I can do and service I can provide. When my body fails, and it’s starting to slow down even now, what will my identity be?
All I can suggest is to start decoupling your identity from your productivity or what you think you are expected to do. Figure out what really matters to you, and what you would regret doing or not doing when you’re elderly.
I’ve gone through a bunch of crap in the past few years, and part of getting back to normal life has been letting go of things that don’t really matter to me (anxiety doesn’t always make this easy, of course) and figuring out what matters most and how I can best enjoy this weird temporary thing we call life.
