Maybe they should have left us a better world if they wanted their genetic line to continue lol
Not one of them cares tbh. Besides, not having kids, is the best environmental friendly option of them all.
I’d guess that having children, in the long run is more environmentally harmful than you eating meat the rest of your life.
Pretty much.
“Oh … But I want kids”, adopt why bringing another being to this fuckshow when u could improve the life of one currently in the bottom of the barrel.
Most do care imo. This Christmas with relatives it was asked many times like no one cares about any other part of my life
Most of your ancestors are dead. And even among the living ones I’d argue that the majority don’t really care. Never the less, who cares if they do.
I live in a land where the “Founding Fathers” are mentioned on the news at least once a week
I’d guess that having children, in the long run is more environmentally harmful than you eating meat the rest of your life.
This just strikes me as silly. What is the “environment” but children of various species? Obviously an environmentally harmonious life is best, but life isn’t just what the environment is for, it’s what the environment is. This is the same mindset as people who have a couch that no one’s allowed to sit on.
When one species growing prevents others from doing the same there is a problem in that ecosystem. For example too many wolves in an area can cause a reduction in prey which is also bad for the wolves. We’re just smart enough to see what we’re doing is harmful to the world around us and we can do things to limit our damage.
And not enough wolves causes an unchecked increase in prey which is bad for the rest of the environment. As I said, harmonious coexistence is best. We have the knowledge and tools to live harmoniously. My problem is with the trend of un-nuanced universal anti-natalism.
Humans have not only sat on that couch; we’ve slept on it, puked on it, taken a dump on it, taken it outside and set fire to it.
As does every other life form, given the chance. We are the only one, that we know of, which even has a concept of conservation. We have the power to consciously regulate our behavior.
In the end, my point is that either life is valuable for its own sake, including humans, or it isn’t, including the rest of the ecosystem. Any philosophy which posits that the existence of other life forms is more valid than that of humans is foundationally inconsistent. I’m certainly not saying that human life is more valid than others, but either life is valid or out isn’t. Humans aren’t special one way or the other.
I find a lot of people can kind of fall down from this path, into anti-natalism, and then malthusianism, and then ultimately eco-fascism and eugenics, through what I like to call the “idiocracy deduction”. Name pending. The sort of idea that, if stupid people are the only one having kids, only stupid people will promulgate, and then we’ll all be stupid. Substitute stupid, for whatever political ideological group you don’t really like (or even minority group), bam, shit’s wacked. So, logically, stupid people, or, my political opposition, or, people I don’t like/who can’t be trusted to have kids, shouldn’t be allowed to have them. After all, you know, it’s more ecologically conscientious to not have kids, so we should just kind of force everyone to not have kids. A lot of this is also going to come down to like, third world countries tending to have higher birth rates because of higher infant mortality, and also tending to have higher emissions, and those two are connected because ???. It’s sort of the inverse of christian conservatives who want to force every white anglo saxon protestant into having 70 billion kids, and then do things like ban abortion on those grounds.
I think there’s also this like, really stupid idea that if we have more people, somehow those people will not have any jobs, based on some naturalistic concern. This is stupid. It’s less that we’ve surpassed the planet’s carrying capacity, and more that we all are just fucking morons who live in an 18th century economic hellsystem. That’s the core of why mathusianism doesn’t work, because there is no “hard” carrying capacity to the planet. People in ancient times had to occupy much larger portions of land in order to support themselves, because their crops were not selectively bred to maximize their calories, and because of diseases and shit, which is part of why agriculture sucked back in the day compared to hunter-gathering, (even though in practice the two aren’t really that different, hunter-gatherers just move around more and thus have access to that larger space which they need to “grow their crops”). In any case, you’d have to build some argument that we’ve entered a period of natural technological stagnation, which is pretty fucking hard to do because you have to thoroughly discount any conceivable future technologies that might help, and you have to discredit the amount of blame resting on the current economic system.
So, yeah, I dunno. I find the whole dealio kind of dumb and stupid. Seems like an overcorrection, kind of like those hardcore atheists that were everywhere in the 2000’s and 2010’s, and you could tell they’d all grown up being raised by radical fundamentalist christian parents or whatever, or just that christians are fucking annoying (big if true), and then have kind of a limited perspective, even just on all religions, because of that, on top of not really being politically different enough from those christians, if you actually boiled it all down. Everyone’s a neoliberal, at the end of the day, everyone’s buying in to the same premises and arguments, even when they disagree on some issue, and then they all fail to see the bigger picture and just kind of end up splintering themselves into more and more radical extremist positions.
Actually you can stop reading here (if you even read all of that, good luck), but I kind of wonder if that’s just like, an inevitable facet of late stage capitalism. It sort of seems to me like the ideological version of spam, which I tend to think of a lot as an analogy for capitalism “maximizing efficiency”. Spam is nonsense, nobody wants to read it, and yet, it will inevitably eat up all the bandwidth if left unchecked, because those with the most economic resources want to cut out all other avenues of communication, and, “make efficient use of the bandwidth”. The fact that everyone eventually becomes kind of radicalized and pushed into these nonsensical extremist positions, totally lacking nuance, the fact that, you know, people slip into fascism, it seems kind of along the same lines. People get pushed to what the maximum extent of their political ideology will allow, through some mechanism, despite liberalism kind of inherently being a modest and compromising ideology at heart, one that becomes incoherent if you actually push it to any logical extremes. I dunno if there’s anything there, about how people’s conceptions of things gets shaped by like, the larger economic system at work.
Upvote for partial agreement, but why the attack on atheism? It’s not extreme to not believe, in fact, it sounds utterly ridiculous that you want moderate or liberal people to believe a little bit in fairy tales, but not too much. There simply is no middle ground with regard to religion, either you delude yourself or you accept the obvious implausibility, lack of evidence and irrationality inherent to them.
Mine are looking up and nodding in approval.
You’re not your ancestors’ only descendant
I asked my wife if she wanted kids and she just waved around and said “look at this shit, do you really want to put a someone through this?” Yep, the world is screwed. But I believe people have to make their own, conscious choice. No sense in forcing them to either have kids or not.
We had a long talk about it and the above statement is just the gist of it. If we lived in better times, sure. But not in this timeline. We both came to that conclusion and it is perfectly fine.
Not to butt in your business, but if that’s your only reason to not have children, and you’re otherwise financially capable and willing to raise kids, have you two considered adoption? Instead of bringing someone extra into this shit as you put it, you’d just be helping one of the people who’re unfortunately already in it.
Fuck yes. Thank you for doing your part to not make this place worse for your woulda-been kids and for me.
My wife and I were planning to have kids in 2020. We had already started the process in 2019. Then covid happened. Then people hoarded toilet paper during a respiratory pandemic that doesn’t even affect your bowels. Then supply lines shut down. Then forest fires raged out of control across the country, turning the skies into red ash. Then protests and riots broke out across the country. All the while trump was happening about eleventy billion times. Ultimately we got a master class on how fucking ridiculous this world has become. We decided never to have kids. We’re already middle aged, so that’s it for us. It’s too late now. We occasionally consider adopting, but that’s a whole other bag of cats.
Same, same. Well just in Germany. We haven’t been hit as bad as the U.S. but your country stretches over three climate zones. However, we live in a small town on the Baltic coast and last year was nuts with the weather. And yes, some people are unfortunately very egoistical and make it even harder for the rest who just want to have a halfway decent life.
People weren’t hoarding toilet paper because they thought it affected their bowels – they were hoarding it because who knew what might happen where we’d have to stay at home or be isolated for a long time.
What’s strange is, why toilet paper and not much else lol. At least where I lived. I wasn’t hoarding, I was just trying to get some at the store because we were running out completely, and the shelves were empty. 💀 Had to buy some non-bulk expensive and fragile af paper.
The why TP is because it was big and noticeable in store. There was a chunk missing and then word got that “you need to get some before they run out” and that causes a run and the stores run out.
If you remember during the gas pipeline cyber attack. It only effected a specific area of the country SE area, but areas outside of the actual problem ran out of fuel because people heard about other stations running out and having problems. We are not good at handling stressful situations together. We turn into a “fuck you, I got mine and I might need to stockpile more for later” type of people.
Where I live grocery stores were picked clean. Honestly we started buying and stocking up as well or we’d end up with nothing.
Just FYI it does affect bowels. My mom had straight diarrhea for weeks while she had covid. I may have had it and my bf we both had the hits for over a week.
