The former president files several fresh motions to toss out Fulton County election interference charges
Attorneys for Donald Trump claim that the former president didn’t have “fair notice” that his attempts to reverse his Georgia loss in the 2020 presidential election could result in criminal charges against him.
A flurry of filings in Fulton County Superior Court on Monday argue that the sprawling election interference case against Mr Trump “consists entirely of core political speech at the zenith of First Amendment protections”.
Attorneys for the former president want the case dismissed on grounds that he has “presidential immunity” from actions while in office, that he was already acquitted for similar allegations in his second impeachment trial, and that he was never told that what he was doing in the state – where he is charged as part of an alleged racketeering scheme to unlawfully subvert the state’s election results – could be prosecuted.
Say it with me friends
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
It worked for Jr. Apparently he was too stupid to collude with Russia, despite his best efforts.
Being too stupid to do it is different from I didn’t know. Though both are bad.
The next trump legal argument: “yer honor I’m literally too dumb to commit crimes”
Not only that, but he was definitely informed. White House counsel and other informed professionals were privy to a bunch of meetings where people were talking about these ideas, and they shared their opinions and sometimes got in shouting matches or resigned.
I think Trump’s brain genuinely cannot process the concepts of “right” and “wrong” as distinct from whatever he feels like doing, and so you could say: Yes, people whose job it is to be informed experts told him very clearly that these things were illegal, but his brain is so rotten and single-minded that he couldn’t absorb that their advice might be objectively true, any more than a dog can understand a “keep off the grass” sign.
Fortunately I think the chance of his lawyers advancing that as a defense is pretty remote.
It boils down to:
No one stopped me in the moment so that means I’m allowed
Like if you tell a child not to touch a hot stove, they touch it, then get mad you didn’t stop them.
You always got to think what would a toddler do if you want to understand trump.
Yeah. It’s just not a logical frame of mind. If you tried to stop me in the moment, you’re the enemy and you must be destroyed, how dare you, I feel angry, fuck you. If I did it and later it turned out it was wrong, you should have stopped me, how dare you, it’s not my fault, it’s your fault, I feel angry, fuck you.
Wait, I remember this one…
“Our country has a longstanding tradition of forceful political advocacy regarding widespread allegations of fraud and irregularities in a long list of presidential elections throughout our history, therefore, President Trump lacked fair notice that his advocacy in the instance of the 2020 presidential election could be criminalized,” according to his attorneys.
Calling what he did “political advocacy” is a bit like calling what Jeffrey Dahmer did an “alternative diet”…
…lacked fair notice that his advocacy in the instance of the 2020 presidential election could be criminalized
They’re trying to insinuate that it was only just made illegal after the fact, like he didn’t know that trying to commit election fraud was already a crime.
I swear they’re about to take the Hitler defense. Just say, “yeah! We did it! We tried to overthrow the government! But only because we looooooove this country so much… And sure, sure, y’all say we’re racist, but it’s clear you don’t understand just how racist we are. We are waaaaaay more racist than you can even conceive.”
Then his idiot followers will talk about how he speaks the truth and says what’s on his mind and he’ll get locked up for, like, a year, during which time he’ll pen his horrible instruction manual on how to destroy our country.
The least realistic part of this, sadly, is the idea that he can write for himself.
He could just get Epsteined when he’s in there. That would be unfortunate and completely unforeseen.
Firstly: of course he knew it was illegal.
Secondly: ignorance of the law does not give you immunity from breaking it
Firstly: of course he knew it was illegal.
Secondly: ignorance of the law does not give you immunity
Third: he assumed no one was taping him committing said crime, if they had not done that he would have simply denied it and his cult would have accepted that lie, as always
Obviously you’re right. That said, in the universe of Trump’s fiction, it tracks (kind of). If the machines were rigged and if the election was stolen, then several things logically follow:
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Trump’s actions to retain power were not only justified, but also imperative, and very much within the scope of his duties as president, since he’s the executive branch; while DOJ might normally handle the day to day, a stolen election is a big deal, and it makes sense he would step in. And therefore he would be immune to prosecution for any “law breaking.”
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If you’re a superhero cop - not an actual, fat ass fascist bastard cop we have irl, but the kind of cop TV says is what cops are like, you don’t have time for subpoenas and warrants – you break down the doors and you grab the evidence. Maybe you’re not even sure if there’s a crime, but you can’t risk it – and if you’re president, you can argue there’s room for “better to ask for forgiveness than permission” in that context.
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If you’re not sure whether there’s been a crime but there’s a massive time pressure and extremely high stakes (as would be the case if the election was actually stolen), you would need to act as if there was a crime, since the consequences if there isn’t pale in comparison to the consequences if there is. So: if you are the head of the executive branch, and you are concerned that there’s a crime of that magnitude, you could easily make the case that you are duty bound to investigate.
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So, the situation is this: if you investigate, and there’s a crime, you’ve saved the world; if you investigate and there is no crime, then you will go to jail for it. That’s a bit unfair – so, a warning that, if you investigate this and there’s no crime, then you’re going to jail, might’ve been called for.
So – if Trump was able to produce even a single piece of evidence to support his claims, the fiction he’s established on top of them is arguable, and, if you start to look at his cases through that lens, his absurd motions and arguments kind of make sense.
To #1, the legal avenue is to bring this to the courts.
He did that and failed the effort. Spectacularly. Multiple times.
The courts determined that he lost, and that any further arguments were frivolous.
It should also be noted he was saying the election was stolen before the polls ever opened, so, there’s that.
if the election was stolen … Trump’s actions to retain power were not only justified, but also imperative, and very much within the scope of his duties as president
Nope this doesn’t follow. It would just mean that both actions would be equally illegal. There is no provision in law for one to break the law in order to remedy breaking the law.
you can argue there’s room for “better to ask for forgiveness than permission” in that context.
This actually basically never applies in real life. In real life we let the criminal off rather than incentivize breaking the law by declaring evidence so gained as fruits of a poisonous tree.
If you’re not sure whether there’s been a crime but there’s a massive time pressure and extremely high stakes (as would be the case if the election was actually stolen), you would need to act as if there was a crime
In the almost mythical stereotypical ticking time bomb scenario where morality can only be served by breaking the law the right thing after the bomb is diffused is to attempt to punish both cop and criminal. The cop in that scenario isn’t above the law their actions are a willing sacrifice of their own well being in service of a higher good.
if you investigate, and there’s a crime, you’ve saved the world; if you investigate and there is no crime, then you will go to jail for it. That’s a bit unfair – so, a warning that, if you investigate this and there’s no crime, then you’re going to jail, might’ve been called for.
He did investigate. There were 60 some cases including in GA. There was a recount and so forth. None of this was a crime.
The crime was threatening the SOS and trying to get the SOS or other officials to “fix” the election after he lost. The crime was getting fake electors to swear on lawful papework that they were lawfully chosen electors.
None of this is even slightly legit. It is as obviously illegal as dealing heroin or hiring a contract killer. Nobody is required to discern the nature of your criminal conspiracy and warn you that you are plotting to commit a crime.
I think though that (using your argument: given the severity/importance of the claim if true) there’s even more necessity that you produce even circumstantial evidence to justify suspicion of a crime before making the accusation.
Similar to how cops are supposed to show probable cause before detaining or pulling you over, etc.
Given that he couldn’t even come close to producing any kind of evidence, even flimsy evidence, and there’s verifiable proof of him pressing election officials and others to illegally alter or create votes to back up his claim, I think it’s clear that he knew very well there was no truth to his claims.
Ignorance of the law does not absolve you of the consequences for breaking that law.
Didn’t it work for Trump Jr and the Russian meeting? Like they couldn’t prove that Jr knew the meeting was illegal behind the flimsy excuse of adoptions. Not that I don’t agree, just some people seem to get away with it and this family seems to have unlimited avoid jail cards when either the avalanche of legal filings (according to contractors he’s stiffed) or whining doesn’t work.
