Boys and men from generation Z are more likely than older baby boomers to believe that feminism has done more harm than good, according to research that shows a “real risk of fractious division among this coming generation”.
…
On feminism, 16% of gen Z males felt it had done more harm than good. Among over-60s the figure was 13%.
The figures emerged from Ipsos polling for King’s College London’s Policy Institute and the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership. The research also found that 37% of men aged 16 to 29 consider “toxic masculinity” an unhelpful phrase, roughly double the number of young women who don’t like it.
“This is a new and unusual generational pattern,” said Prof Bobby Duffy, director of the Policy Institute. “Normally, it tends to be the case that younger generations are consistently more comfortable with emerging social norms, as they grew up with these as a natural part of their lives.”
Link to study: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/masculinity-and-womens-equality-study-finds-emerging-gender-divide-in-young-peoples-attitudes
Seriously doubt this (and most polling these days). Gen Z is particularly unlikely to respond to polls or answer unknown callers in general. Until those issues in polling are solved, I take them with a grain of salt.
Looks like this was an online poll where you get paid if randomly selected:
Ipsos UK interviewed online a representative sample of 3,716 adults aged 16+ across the United Kingdom between 17 and 23 August 2023. This data has been collected by Ipsos’s UK KnowledgePanel, an online random probability panel…
For what it’s worth, there’s a recent Gallup survey showing a similar trend that published a couple weeks ago:
…Since 2014, women between the ages of 18 and 29 have steadily become more liberal each year, while young men have not. Today, female Gen Zers are more likely than their male counterparts to vote, care more about political issues, and participate in social movements and protests.
https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-gender-gap-young-men-women-dont-agree-politics-2024-1
That’s an interesting thing to note. If the people more likely to approve of Tate and his message are the ones looking for easy money then that could indicate a degree of selection bias.
The existence and popularity of people like Tate and toxic dating strategy shit might be an indication of how Gen Z is handling misogyny. It’s possible Gen Z hasn’t been exposed to misogyny in such heavy doses as the rest of us. Seeing your peers undervalued and objectified could sort of be an inoculation. There also might be a perquisite strong belief in equality component.
For things like feminism, the battle is never over. Insidious ideals like misogyny needs to be constantly kept in check.
Your first link disagrees with the article you posted…
And while younger people overall have a more favourable view of this phrase, there is a big gender divide in views among them: 37% of men aged 16 to 29 say “toxic masculinity” is an unhelpful phrase, roughly double the 19% of young women who feel this way. Correspondingly, young women (47%) are considerably more likely than young men (29%) – or any other age category – to find it a helpful term.
By contrast, views among older age groups vary less by gender – although older men are more likely than younger men to say “toxic masculinity” is an unhelpful term.
It sounds like the only change is you get women are more supportive of feminism than older women…
The first link is the study the article cites to. Also, I don’t think there’s a disagreement. The portion you cited refers specifically to “toxic masculinity,” whereas the article focuses on people’s reactions to “feminism.” Specifically, it mentions that 16% of Gen Z males felt feminism had done more harm than good, compared to 13% among those over 60, to support its claim.
and how many people will click on an ad or email saying you’ll get paid to take a poll?
is that a representative portion of the population or a very niche subgroup of desperate, gullible or extremely bored people?
how/where was it advertised?
…
polls don’t have to be bullshit, but they always are…
It sounds like you are sent the poll by snailmail and/or you are “recruited” that way and are then sent multiple polls over sometime.
https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/uk-knowledgepanel
It’s hard to get random people’s emails and still be sure that the samling is good. This way seems more reliable. The few serious polls I have ever been sent by the National Bureau of Statistics has always been sent by snailmail (or technically digital snailmail which is connected to my digital ID)
If you pay me to answer your poll, I’ll answer it however you want me to.
Good polling can be formated in a way to weed out people giving nonsense answers, it’s like the first thing you learn about polling in sociology or psychology, how to extract quality data.
There are multiple studies showing the same thing. Denying it isn’t going to change anything.
I’d like to warn all the Americans against generalizing based upon their personal experiences or beliefs here. This is a UK study that sampled a UK population. These results can’t necessarily be generalized to any other country, this is focused on the UK culture.
There was a recent story on NPR that addressed this. I can’t find it now but basically it said that all these studies in isolation have issues but now there appears to be a trend that transcends national boundaries and cultures.
I don’t know about the NPR one, but Business Insider and the Financial Times had articles recently pulling together a bunch of surveys finding similar trends in the US and around the world respectively
I find the internet is super good at locking people into echo chambers. For some reason, I feel especially keen on this when I was super into reddit over the last decade. I could FEEL just how a community would shift into just saying the same 10 things on repeat and any deviation would result in downvotes and messages in my inbox.
But it’s not just reddit. Modern video feed algorithms and other social media just need to feed you the same stuff you’ve engaged with previously.
So what ends up happening is young boys only see the videos of angry purple haired stereotype liberal feminist first year college student get SLAMMED/DESTROYED by Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson or a woman who is clearly saying something sarcastic with sad sigma male music in the background and all the comments are calling for her to be put in prison or death.
And that’s not to say people don’t experience these types IRL and it morphs their opinions, my sister is this stereotype and is pretty fucking stupid and she will get into heated debates on Facebook about stuff she has no idea about. She’ll read a headline and form a whole mindset of bullshit around it and never verify if it was just a click bait article posted to Facebook to get ad revenue with no concept of journalist integrity. It’s really difficult talking to her about anything political because even though I’m pretty liberal/progressive myself, she’ll just say things that are factually wrong and when I try to talk to her about it she takes it as me disagreeing and won’t listen to reason or logic outside of her preconceived image of reality. Very difficult person
I often have to look at her and remind myself that people like her are a very small portion of the population and aren’t really indicative of the masses.
Modern video feed algorithms and other social media just need to feed you the same stuff you’ve engaged with previously.
People should really stop saying this. Every YouTube ad I get and recommendation I get is crap now. It is like someone ordered the developers to break echo chambers by making sure people don’t get what they want. I am not a fucking kid, I know what I want to watch, and what I don’t want to watch. Tired of the anti trans bullshit I am constantly being suggested.
i think your experience is likely anecdotal and non-representative of general trends.
scholars still indicate that algorithms play a significant role in gathering echo chambers
That’s not anti-echohamber. That’s the algorithm reinforcing the anti-trans propaganda that drives clicks and views on most platforms. Controversy is sensational, and anger provokes responses.
The internet can definitely get very echo chamber/brigade/gatekeepy when it feels like it. Sadly, lots of people have no identity of their own and attempt to latch on to one created for them. Once this happens, then they fiercely and angrily defend what the adopted, as if it were them being attacked personally.
I find the internet is super good at locking people into echo chambers.
People do this to themselves because they find comfort in the familiar, like in real life. I am not sure echo chambers are a unique to the internet.
Yes, to an extent. But the algorithms of all the major social media sites kick this into overdrive. Seriously, how many times have you clicked on a random YouTube video about some obscure topic and then for the next week it seems like every other recommended video is about that same topic? Even if you just watched a little bit of the original video and then clicked away because it wasn’t interesting. I see the same thing with the Google Feed on my Android phone - I click on one random article and then it just assumes that one topic is my new primary interest.
Probably not the comment you were expecting, but, what’s “sad sigma male music”? And why is it called that?
There are a few sound clips that got used a lot when the whole dumbass sigma male thing was popular
Actually, the internet exposes people to more diverse views. Before the internet, you had to agree with whoever lived close by. These days, the outrage machine constantly exposes you to people who disagree with you.
I heavily disagree. Hardcore disagree. Have you seen these people who turn on fox news and never turn it off?
It just exposes people to more extreme versions of what they already believe in
The wording here is really important. We don’t know how masculinity and feminism are being defined here.
Stuff that began with “woman’s suffrage” are honored by people in this age group. They think it’s normal women vote, have jobs, leave the house etc. Some of this stuff probably isn’t even “feminism” to them but just “normal.”
Remember that these guys are on social media a lot more than us and see those words misued frequently for click bait, etc.
But that misuse of the word is harming the overall cause. It’s not like the need for feminism has evaporated, although it has surely evolved, and if young men think it’s harmful… Even if what they think is harmful is not an accurate representation of what feminism is, they aren’t going to be supporters of what it actually is if it has the name attached.
Maybe it is time for a new movement with a new name.
I suppose that could work. I do know several religious women who wouldn’t identify as feminists but still believe in abortion, etc (remember that not all religious people are white supremacist Protestants). The word may have fell out of favor but honestly it’s the idea that matter anyways.
If I have to take a guess, perhaps there is a base woman’s suffrage that is now universal and now feminism is now used by the younger generation to be what was considered “feminist extremism” by us. Words do change, it happens.
I’m really happy you commented this. “normal” reflects norms.
Part of any generational attitude divide is the base conditions aka norms. When a change / progress is made, it sets those norms.
It’s normal for my generation that people wear seat belts and don’t smoke in pubs, that women have extensive varied careers and dads don’t beat their kids. It wasn’t for the generation before me.
It’s not normal for men of my generation to talk openly and confidently about their sexuality and mental health. Yet that seems to be normal for some of the younger generations, and I envy that.
I find that the easiest way to tap into the generational norms is to listen to comedy. It often represents the edge of what is considered acceptable, because comedy does play with that edge.
It’s amusing to see the pitchforks come out for comedians where they’re judged for edgy content from 25 years ago and society has moved on a bit. Amusing because most of this judgement seems to happen online, and thus is a permanent record, so in 25 years time we’ll have a bunch of embarrassed mid 40s people trying to explain their cruelty to an unsympathetic younger generation. “you weren’t there, man! You don’t understand!”
Watching from country, where even 70 years ago everyone voted(although single-candidate elections are shit), everyone worked, state provided daycare for all children and my grandma worked as loader in shop because she had to work somewhere like everyone else had to, it is bizzare what shitshow happens 4 km to the east of my country.
Although I understand the importance of feminism, I never had the impression that feminists are good at PR. Somehow, most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.
Feminism is something with many internal factions. But yeah, the loudest ones aren’t usually interested in genuine discourse. Some of those factions can act every bit as unhinged as ‘persecuted’ Christians about total non-issues, like Oscars nominations despite womankind as a whole having some very real issues to worry about.
People who say reasonable things most people can agree with rarely get their own platform.
Also, lots of people who say reasonable things have lies spread about them by misogynists and get made to look unreasonable
Somehow, most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.
Does anyone have a link to any of these? I keep hearing recently that somehow this has been a thing for ages, but last I checked “wanting gender equality” was the driving idea of feminism, and that a large portion of women and men agreed with this.
I’m in my early 40’s and I definitely haven’t seen some deluge of articles by women, who while proclaiming feminism, “stereotype and bash men.”
EDIT: Seven downvotes, zero links. Pretty par for the course, guys. I’m not surprised, just disappointed.
EDIT 2: To any men, or boys, reading this who have been assaulted, there are supports for you. Feminism is as much about getting you the support you need that you don’t have just as much as it is about getting women the support they need. I can’t cover every country here, but if you’re from Canada like me here is a government link to services for men and boys in intimate partner violence situations, and for ‘general abuse’ there is this link. There are people out there who care, please reach out to them.
Well, the problem is that nobody collects history of feminism articles they have read. I’m not gonna spend time on collecting them. Even if I did, you don’t know how fair my collection strategy would be. I have no idea what Google query would reproduce the samples the average person encounters these things online. So, to do this fairly requires a dedication akin to writing a scientific article on this topic… Nobody has the time.
And if I presented such a survey, you’d do your own research to verify the results anyway. So, I hate to say this, but why not check the web yourself?
If you don’t, I think the most feasible you could try is to summarize people’s replies.
Well, the problem is that nobody collects history of feminism articles they have read.
Apparently you don’t have to, because ‘Somehow, most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.’ So go find some of these articles.
It’s not my job to verify your insulting, reductive, broad-sweeping claims. Feminists have fought for equality for both men and women, this is a fact. The missive is “… a range of socio-political movements and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes.[a][2][3][4][5] Feminism holds the position that societies prioritize the male point of view and that women are treated unjustly in these societies.[6] Efforts to change this include fighting against gender stereotypes and improving educational, professional, and interpersonal opportunities and outcomes for women.”
How we go from that to ‘most articles just stereotype and bash men’? You don’t get to make a claim like ’ most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men’ and then literally provide zero examples. This is just Hasty Generalization and it’s depressing to watch another man do this in a thread about the sudden decline in men agreeing that gender equality-seeking is somehow ‘stereotyping and bashing men.’
Go take a look at the UN’s Twitter account on National Men’s day. Or I remember articles about how 1 in 4 homeless are women and it’s a tragedy for women. Honestly if you have seen articles like these before you’re either not reading many of them or you aren’t noticing what they are saying.
Go take a look at the UN’s Twitter account on National Men’s day. Or I remember articles about how 1 in 4 homeless are women and it’s a tragedy for women. Honestly if you have seen articles like these before you’re either not reading many of them or you aren’t noticing what they are saying.
So an article, and some twitter comments. That’s not exactly “…most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
Especially the history section will be relevant to you.
When people complain about feminism they generally complain about forth wave or maybe third wave feminism. When people point out all the good feminism they usually mean first and second wave feminism.
Edit: chances are you’ll have to watch with subtitles (it’s in German), but here’s a documentary (with commentary, because the documentary fucked up hard in some parts) about feminism: https://youtube.com/watch?v=I-OFCy-NrU4
And here is an interview with one of the subjects of the documentary who felt wrongly presented (rightfully so): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tvPExRR_GRg
Here’s one that bashes white people
But I’m on the author’s discord server and They’re a very sensible radical leftist
… just curious, but are you perusing a lot of feminist literature?
I know I’m not.
But what I do see are the articles that the right wing has decided are rage inducing and fair game and that they plaster everywhere to try to influence people.
So … maybe worth some thought.
No. And I don’t think I’ve encountered these articles on right-wing webpages when I vistas there out of curiosity. I instead think some were rants on Reddit written by feminists (while I can’t recall how I encountered others). So maybe a selection bias on my side, or the loudest feminists get more upvotes even outside rightwing subreddits.
Not everyone claiming to be a feminist is actually one. There’s a lot of misandrists that use the feminist label to spread their bullshit. But feminism in of itself is meant to be an egalitarian movement, it’s about equality. It was never meant to bash men or make them unequal to women.
I do agree however that many feminists often look away when these type of people spew their garbage out into the public. I think especially women need to make sure to tell these people where to stuff it and that their shit isn’t welcomed.
A good chunk of the “feminist” who are guilty of it are also TERFs. To them, trans women are just creepy men, and trans men are women trying to cheat into getting male privilege. They started from a place of hating men, and that’s where they went.
Feminism as a whole has also been trying very hard to kick them out of the club. That’s difficult when there’s no central authority figure who dictates what is and is not feminism, but TERFs don’t last long at most of the meetups.
