You can’t delete any text in comments or posts either - or at least not reliably, as any federated instance could choose to ignore deletions.
You should basically consider what you write or post here public, and probably public for good. But here’s the thing - same goes for the entire rest of the Internet as well, basically.
You should generally think similarly about anything you post anywhere on the internet that has open access. If it’s viewable anonymously, anyone could save and mirror it.
The only difference is it’s almost guaranteed on a federated platform.
I feel like, after over a decade of smartphones and snapchat and such, a younger generation needs to be thought better what putting content on the Internet means on a fundamental level, and those of us old enough to remember the more open web need to be reminded.
If you don’t want everyone to see it, and I mean everyone, then you shouldn’t put it online. For all intents and purposes, once you hit send, it’s now a part of the internet. You might get lucky and be able to remove it, but that’s the exception, not the rule.
Sometimes views on things change and maybe some picture or other content you posted now makes you a target in some way that it didn’t before. You don’t always know how things will change in the future and adding such a highly expected piece of functionality like deleting something you uploaded should probably be more highly prioritized.
I agree with your core concept.
But this is a pretty wild flaw. The fact that even an admin can’t reliably delete photos from their own instance? That’s begging to be exploited by bad actors. What happens when it’s porn (whether kids or unconsenting adults)? It’s core functionality that you have to have.
I didnt know about that. This is a bit scary to be honest, and the first time I feel a bit taken aback with lemmy
You also know that all votes are technically public and can be viewed by any instance admin that’s federated with the server a community is on, right? There’s no way to see that in the Lemmy UI at the moment but the data is there on the server.
There’s no way to see that in the Lemmy UI at the moment but the data is there on the server.
Actually, they’re adding it into the UI for admins. And they’re letting mods see to.
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/2320
Rather than do anything to try and protect this data or obfuscate it in any way, they just decided “fuck it”.
And that’s frankly worrying. I truly don’t think people understand why Reddit didn’t let mods see that information. The avenues for abuse here are innumerable.
I mean you could say the same thing about reddit - anyone could scrape reddit and save comments and stuff, even if you later delete them.
If someone can see something on their computer, they can save it and you won’t be able to take it away. I mean… it’s just how the internet works.
The difference is that things on Reddit were public because Reddit chose to make them available, while things on Lemmy are public because they have to be in order for the federated protocol to work.
Lemmy and other services built on ActivityPub work by sending content to every server that hosts a user who has subscribed to a community or another user. Those servers could be anything from vanilla Lemmy hosted in a datacenter to an ad-hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of ActivityPub running on a jailbroken smart light bulb. Most of them will be online to receive a delete request and will handle it correctly most of the time, but that cannot be guaranteed.
Anything you share to the world that way is out in the world and cannot be reliably rescinded. Discussion groups implemented as email lists used to be popular, and the same was true there, but more so since there isn’t a mechanism intended to edit or delete an email message after it is sent. Something similar is true of anything that functions as a public website; a great many things published to the web are available from sites like archive.org, like old forum posts.
I don’t know if this works on Lemmy, but Reddit used to be like this and a solution was to edit your comment to different text first (something like ‘I like turtles’), wait about a week to allow the new text to be archived, and then delete it.
‘I like turtles’ wasn’t special, but makes it easy to scroll through your comments later when deleting things.
In Lemmy, your username will still show up with deleted comments, but in theory the edited text will replace the original comment you want to delete in archived views. This method doesn’t work with post images, though.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong here, please.
e: I’ve edited this comment thrice in 2 hours. Can anyone tell, and can you differentiate my 3 edits?
On the front end this still theoretically works, but it’s unclear when (if ever) reddit respected it on the back end. They might have an archive of all the text ever put on the site.
And seemingly nothing is actually deleted, just hidden. Boost for Lemmy currently has an interesting bug where any comment, deleted or removed, can still be seen by simply selecting “copy post text” from the menu, as the API will return what was previously there.
PSA, if you want to delete a comment or post, be absolutely sure you first edit it to be blank.
It’s a different level of can’t delete though, because if you upload a photo but never even post it, it will still be up forever. And at least a working delete protocol exists for text
Lemmy in general is filled with potential security and privacy holes. The threat surface is just too massive.
Not to mention it has a bunch of vulnerabilities in terms of just basic forum functionality. A rogue instance can very easily just hijack all sorts of federated content and force it into a certain state as desired. Especially if that content is old. There is not really any mechanism for tracking source authority for federated updates, and there are definitely already signs that this is getting exploited to promote certain content and fuck with vote totals IMO.
None of this really matters at this point because Lemmy is insignificant, but it kind of places a limit on how much Lemmy can be scaled before it just becomes even more of a cringe propaganda wasteland than it already is.
A rogue instance can very easily just hijack all sorts of federated content and force it into a certain state as desired.
I’m really not sure what you mean by this, can you elaborate?
There is not really any mechanism for tracking source authority for federated updates, and there are definitely already signs that this is getting exploited to promote certain content and fuck with vote totals IMO.
I’m not sure what you mean by “not any mechanism for tracking source authority”. Admins on their own instance are in control of what happens to the content and they’ll know if another site edits content or whatever as that is sent as requests in ActivityPub.
What are the signs you’re referring to?
Are updates authenticated? Or can I send an update to lemmy.world from 123.123.123.123 (which is not the IP address of feddit.de) that you have edited your comment to say “I don’t like pizza”?
If updates are not authenticated this really could be a big problem.
Is this not illegal under GDPR? The right to retrieve and delete all data is a fundamental part of that legislation. Maybe only European hosted instances are in jurisdiction?
Welcome to the hell of being a lemmy admin. There’s a reason why lemmy admins are fed up with the developers.
For context, there’s a lot that goes on behind the scenes when it comes to lemmy admin stuff especially in the matrix channels. There is a significant frustration and lack of confidence in the lemmy developers at this point. Even those who try to contribute to the project get eventually feeling pushed out.
Based on what I’ve seen on the public facing part of the developer side, I get the feeling this isn’t the kind of group that can build the kind of organization required to make this sustainable in the long run.
I’m just waiting for when Beehaw releases that they’ve given up on Lemmy and have created a new tech stack.
It’s open source. We don’t have to depend on the original developers.
If it gets too bad, someone can just make a fork.
Afaik people are just impatient with the developers and have different short term goals.
In terms of new tech stack currently theres sublinks being made by devs/admins of a bunch of instances (discuss.online, lemmy.world, programming.dev, etc.)
We already have Sublinks
That sucks. As a 3rd party Lemmy app developer, I’ve only had positive interactions with the Lemmy devs. They’re even being proactive in communications.
Try submitting a pull request for something in one of the core repos.
They behave as if every line of code in your commit is a sentence proclaiming “Why yes, your wife is a whore, your dog doesn’t love you, AND your baby is ugly.”
I’m not kidding, there’s no hyperbole in that statement. Go read some of their declined pull requests threads for some entertainment.
Even those who try to contribute to the project get eventually feeling pushed out.
Submitting a pull request to one of their repos on Github was really an experience, and I can tell you that I will never submit another one to the Lemmy project while they’re still the lead devs based on that experience.
What about kbin, isn’t that entirely different software that can be developed to phase out Lemmy?
Not sure I understand. How could there possibly be a solution? Isn’t this an inherent problem with federation? You can’t un-share information
But you can delete your copy, ask others nicely to delete theirs, and refuse to accept more copies of the same thing.
I’m not sure if Lemmy supports any of this, but it seems pretty important for e.g. child porn.
How can you refuse to accept more copies of the same thing, when you deleted all the version it can compare itself to?
There could be a legally binding contract stating that any deletion request must be forwarded to all parties it was send to, and that upon receiving such a request the data must be deleted. I do not think this would be unreasonable to ask to servers, especially as this deletion receipt could be fully automated.
Or there could be a delay of one minute before posts get federated, giving the user the option to quickly delete a comment or post.
legally binding contract
Maybe, but consider that federated servers may be located in entirely different legal jurisdictions, so this might be hard to create, let alone enforce.
The images aren’t federated afaik. They live on your home instance. If somebody else views them, they’re loaded directly from there.
However there’s no link between the images and your account. You can’t delete them yourself because Lemmy doesn’t store the “delete token”. They’re effectively orphaned.
Not true, images are federated. Sometimes they are not copied if your instance has a lower image size limit than the instance the image came from (if the image is too large), but generally images are copied between instances.
So what have they been doing to nuke the csam images, editing the database directly?
Often just nuking all image uploads made during a certain time period. Which is why old image threads in Lemmy have time periods littered with broken images.
I don’t understand why Lemmy needs to have a built-in image server at all. Reddit didn’t have one for the longest time and it was fine. Sure, I don’t think anyone would be particularly happy with going back to Imgur etc., but it doesn’t seem worth the trouble.
I mean I don’t know why we need images at all, this stuff worked fine when it was just a BBS
Often they delete all images during the time frame of a CSAM attack, as that has been the only real feasible way to ensure images weren’t left behind. Though I think a few images have started using AI detection methods to remove images like that automatically (read up on that here and here), also Pict-rs now has a Log linking uploaded images to the user, so now images can be purged with the users.
Admins can purge posts manually which actually deletes them. Or use tools like db0’s lemmy-safety that tries to automatically search for CSAM and wipe it.
I think the problem here is the user didn’t finish their post which means the photo was uploaded but not associated with a post and therefore not purgeable that way.
So when I accidentally uploaded those Death Star plans…
Don’t worry. There was some little minor thing about a vent but is reported as fixed since it was discovered.
How exactly does Lemmy remain in compliance with laws regarding, for example, a user’s right to have all data associated with their account deleted (right to erasure, etc), or ensure that it is only kept for a time period reasonable while the user is actively using your services (data protection retention periods, etc)?
It’s not a big deal for me, just strange to think Lemmy of all places would be built to be so anti user’s data rights. The user is ultimately the one that decides what is done with their information/property, after all.
Lemmy is not a singular software or website, every instance on its own need to ensure compliance with their respective laws where they are domiciled.
But if instance A is domiciled in the EU, and the content mirrored to instance B in Zimbabwe, where no right to be forgotten exists, then a user of instance A can’t invoke any laws beyond what the local admin can control.
That’s amazing for high availability of content - it’s essentially mirrored in perpetuity - but a nightmare for privacy advocates. AFAIK there haven’t been any court cases related to deletion requests, so that’s still virgin territory.
Instances located in Zimbabwe still have to comply with the GDPR, as the law applies to any entity that processes EU citizen’s personal data, regardless of where this happens. Instance B would also have to comply with a deletion request, or whatever EU member state the citizen is from will impose a fine and seize assets if necessary.
This is the stupidest claim GDPR makes. It’s completely unenforceable and it’s attempting to enforce EU law in countries outside of the EU, which goes completely against any norms in international relations.
GDPR does not depend on business size, there are just a few stricter requirements when you have more than 250 employees. But most of the GDPR still applies to my knowledge.
Uhuh, suuureeeee. Tell that to any number of fines that has yearly been issued by my country’s GDPR oversight agency on ordinary citizens.
GDPR only applies when people file reports and when there are lawsuits. There’s literally no shortage of articles of people fined for GDPR violations, all people need to do is search for them.
When someone files the inevitable court case, please let me know. I have some admin behavior bullshit I will be willing to personally get in contact with the lawyers about that I think could help it.
Because Federation is a terrible idea
But think of Reddit, they can delete a post but a bunch of archived websites will still have it. That doesn’t make Reddit non-compliant
Why is federation bad? It’s the only way to decentralize without having everyone scattered across millions of sites.
The days prior to 2014 are gone and for the most part, the overwhelming majority of people don’t want to register across dozens of sites. Everyone naturally gravitates toward massive content silos where they can get everything in one place.
For the health of the internet you want people scattered across millions of websites
And the need for regulations that limit active users isn’t a reason to contribute further to the problem
Preventing congregation weakens the effectiveness of disinformation and propaganda campaigns, and protects against bullying
