timemachineyeah
drives me up a wall living in a very very red district, like “no democrat is ever going to win any local election, let alone a real leftist” district, like “our school board members ran on who was the most anti-mask” red, like “I pass white supremacist signs on the way to buy weed” red
and being in the local leftist community and the guy who runs the anarchist book club and the lady who helps keep the warming shelters open and the people who marched on city hall when a local business was getting death threats for having a drag show are all members of a discord and we get on this discord and have frank discussions about how best to vote
the people who do the protests and the mutual aid and all the real work
going “okay, they’re both fascists, but this one lacks ambition and seems happy to just glide in the position” or “they both suck, but this one can be reasoned with if you frame it patriotically enough” like we don’t even have a democrat to vote for. we know what a vote is. we know what we hope accomplish with it. we know what it can do, and we know what it can’t.
and going from those discussions to here where people think that your vote is some kind of fucking??? enabling maneuver??? as if someone isn’t going to end up in that seat regardless of what you do???
we didn’t build this system, we just live in it. we’re just trying to survive. a vote isn’t a statement of your values, it’s not an endorsement, it’s not a marriage contract, it’s a strategic play you make to keep alive.
the biggest mistake I see leftists making is overestimating their own popularity. “well but everyone would be leftist if they just-” no, stop, 1) you can’t possibly know that 2) everyone will not just
This is one of those things where I’m in agreement but I’m also fucking tired of hearing the “lesser of two evils” bullshit (in general). The country is going to continue to drag right because that’s what benefits the ruling class. That’s the reality. Both parties and both candidates are playing their roles in this continued push. Thinking we actually have a say in the end is the first mistake, like voting in federal elections in the US is some massive action. It’s the whole ratchet effect in politics. You can either vote for the far right candidate, or you can vote for the center right one. That’s it. Those are the choices. We can sit here and make these absolutely garbage people the focus of our entire discussion and move the needle nowhere, despite knowing exactly how this is going to play out, or we can make it moot and focus on organizing while not wasting time talking about filling a circle in on a piece of paper while patting ourselves on the back. In the scheme of things the working class can do, that is the bare minimum.
I don’t give a shit about any of these candidates. All I know is that one is committing genocide and the other is a boomer criminal that employs a bunch of family members and other sycophants, who would also commit the same genocide if given the chance. Because thats what the ruling class beast demands and nothing stops it. People make voting into a bigger thing than they do organizing and educating. Bide your time. Vote if you want or don’t. Scolding people is a waste of time and it’s divisive. It continues the divide that the ruling class wants because they know it’s one of the key factors that prevent the working class from uniting as one. We have the numbers. The fucking Ants movie tried to tell us.
The reality is that if we want real, actual change, it’s going to require us to get out of that comfort zone where we fill in a little circle with a pen and then act like we moved mountains. That right there is privileged lib shit. Your vote isn’t going to mean fuck all when we’ve witnessed the candidates change for years, while war and genocide continued under all of them; while the police state thrived under all of them; while trans and women’s reproductive rights were taken away or hindered under all of them.
These are the times when I wish Fred Hampton was still alive.
Thank you for writing all of this out. It needs to be said more. We’re not going to break the system constantly acquiescing to a rigged system.
I’m happy to do it. I know I have some unpopular opinions, but part of breaking the cycle is getting uncomfortable.
We need to collectively realize that the ruling class will never let things deviate too far out of their control. I’m definitely not saying one shouldn’t vote (you should; it’s easy and the least you can do), but we need to stop hinging so much on it. We’ve been doing the “lesser of two evils” thing for what feels like an eternity. It’s tired and we need to move beyond it because it’s a divisive key set piece in the arsenal of the ruling class. The division is the intent. If we keep arguing over which old white guy in a suit is worse, we’re spinning our wheels in the mud.
We’re talking about a government that has been swaying people’s minds and overthrowing governments in other countries for decades. They absolutely do use the same exact tactics on the working class in the US and it would be naive to think they don’t. Everyone is affected by propaganda. That’s a big reason the TikTok ban immediately received 81% approval, when other things like basic human rights get little to no traction. And it’s not some thing that happens in the span of 5 years; it’s a long, arduous process that requires a ton of moving pieces and has multiple benefits for the ruling class.
Vote or don’t vote. All that matters is remembering that the working class collective is stronger as one unit. That kind of unification and the numbers behind it are what truly strike fear into a fascist government.
Can you please start a newsletter or something? I want to subscribe. You’re saying the same frustrating things I’ve been saying for ages. We need more of this voice presented. It’s critical that we start breaking away all of the apathy.
What kills me about posts like this is that they paint leftist activism in a way that’s indistinguishable from christian evangelicalism.
- Serves the poor by working at homeless shelters
- protests un-threateningly against opposition
- participates in book clubs and peer groups
- otherwise fully participates in a system that’s hostile toward their existence
Libs like this forget that the civil rights leaders they model themselves after were intentionally inflammatory -sometimes violently so- so that the people who were refusing to negotiate with them would be forced to do so at risk of material harm to their interests. All these people downvoting you would rather protests be silent and non-invasive than be loud or -god forbid- threaten the power structure they comfortably benefit from.
MLK and Fred Hampton are looked at so favorably in hindsight because they forced the liberal structures at the time to concede some minimum amount of liberty to those who were actively under threat. They weren’t targeting conservative fascists with their protests (they knew better than to think they would ever change their minds), they were targeting those centrists who thought themselves allys but stopped short of action because they themselves were not materially threatened by the systemic injustices being faced by the black community at the time, and they didn’t want to risk harm to their own position in order to solve it. Protests were a way to hold hostage their interest in exchange for addressing the interests of black americans.
To quote MLK from his letter from birmingham:
You may well ask: “Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn’t negotiation a better path?” You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word “tension.” I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood.
The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue.
One of the basic points in your statement is that the action that I and my associates have taken in Birmingham is untimely. Some have asked: “Why didn’t you give the new city administration time to act?” The only answer that I can give to this query is that the new Birmingham administration must be prodded about as much as the outgoing one, before it will act. We are sadly mistaken if we feel that the election of Albert Boutwell as mayor will bring the millennium to Birmingham. While Mr. Boutwell is a much more gentle person than Mr. Connor, they are both segregationists, dedicated to maintenance of the status quo. I have hope that Mr. Boutwell will be reasonable enough to see the futility of massive resistance to desegregation. But he will not see this without pressure from devotees of civil rights. My friends, I must say to you that we have not made a single gain in civil rights without determined legal and nonviolent pressure. Lamentably, it is an historical fact that privileged groups seldom give up their privileges voluntarily. Individuals may see the moral light and voluntarily give up their unjust posture; but, as Reinhold Niebuhr has reminded us, groups tend to be more immoral than individuals.
MLK might as well have been comparing Biden and Trump with regards to their shared zionism. Biden deserves no less pressure to negotiate just because he is a “more gentle” person.
And the other classic MLK quote about “the white moderate”:
I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice […]
Always happy to contribute. I hope I don’t sound combative either. It’s never from that kind of place, and more from a frustration and anger point of view that stems from US politics and western aggression. I know some of my opinions aren’t the most popular. It’s a weird battle against apathy when trying to keep your head up in a system that strives to turn us all into subservient worker drones.
Feels like there’s some sort of a spiritual element at play too. One option might be better irl, but it isn’t worth it if you think choosing either will get your soul damned (in a religious, social or self respect sense)
That’s part of my problem. I’m a moral absolutist about a lot of things, which is a luxury. I don’t currently have that luxury, but that knowledge doesn’t change my morals.
The other part is the game theory aspect, in that the further right a candidate you accept, the further right the next democrat will be. The OP in this is trying to survive, not to change the system.
in that the further right a candidate you accept, the further right the next democrat will be
This too. Seen people that think there’s literally no difference between conservatives and liberals so it’ll be the same either way. I can’t fathom how you can be so devoid of nuance so it feels like what they really want deep down is to accelerate.
Also I like that oop is specifically talking about nuance between two repubs. People seem to equate ‘better’ with ‘good’ so they’ll come up with reasoning like ‘liberals are not better they will just let conservatives do whatever they want’. That’s still better than more conservatives that help conservatives do what they want. And between conservatives there can still be a distinction.
it feels like what they really want deep down is to accelerate.
It doesn’t just feel that way, it is that way for a lot of people because they believe that they’ll be the vanguard of a glorious rising utopia, when they’re statistically more likely to be a meat crayon marking up the hood of some chud’s Jeep when they’re out protesting
The OP in this is trying to survive, not to change the system.
says who? genuinely, what leads you to believe that? what part of reducing harm in the immediate future also precludes one from working for systemic change?
i commented this elsewhere but it bears repeating: why are we alergic to doing both?
I believe they meant to phrase it as:
The OP in this is saying to vote strategically is to survive, which you have to do to change the system.
At least that’s what I got from the context.
We didn’t build this system, we just live in it. We’re just trying to survive.
Obviously both need to happen, because you can’t change the system if you’re dead. I don’t live in a situation like the OP though, so we’re going to have different voting priorities.
do you guys seriously think we don’t vote? dude im forced to in my country, this is completely irrelevant.
you are not even listening, if you wanna do something go organize and stop wasting time and brainpower on that shitty theater for fucks sake.
your country is already fascist and already not a democracy. scribbling on ballots aint changing this.
“oh lets me choose the fascist that can be reasoned with!”, “choose the genocidal racist with a blue hat instead of the red one!” you guys can’t be that dumb, I refuse to believe it.
We know it’s bad. The point is that we unfortunately have to choose the lesser of the two evils, like it or not.
No, we don’t.
The first step is admitting that the State won’t let us vote its power away.
AKA:
I haven’t started suffering yet and I don’t want to so it’s best if we let it stay this way while I get to enjoy what I can of my existence before it becomes the next’s problem.
Many are suffering, and it’s not in a good state right now. But it also means being strategic about it. The issue with the right and far right is that many people who hold those beliefs have a common goal and are unified in it (even if it’s because their candidates are somewhat less popular as therefore there is only one).
There was a candidate in 2016 that was very liberal and had good intentions, but many saw him as too liberal. Enough voted for him that it split the democratic votes between two candidates and Trump won, so yes unfortunately we do have to think about opposing the other side instead of just voting for who we like best as individuals. Did I mention the two party system sucks?
Why? I don’t live in an undemocratic country with only 2 parties.
Why should I need to read it?
why are you commenting if you self admittedly don’t care to read the post or understand its context. what ur doing is tantamount to trolling and super annoying.
You only hear this argument pop up when they’re admitting their candidate is shit but it’s the only choice you have besides the other guy.
THIS ISNT A REAL CHOICE AND WE NEED TO STOP PRETENDING IT IS. This is literally how the system maintains it’s 2 party nature.
Yes, you should vote. And vote for who you actually believe in and who you think will actually make a difference, not just the “safe bet”. It’s a prisoners dilemma and we’re all too afraid to make the right move.
Oh I read it. It’s a load of crap. “Leftists” are part of the broken system too. US “liberals” are still conservatives in most other nations.
Voting “just to survive” is voting to keep the system intact. But keep arguing how you’re not part of the problem while voting for the current ruling class that keeps it entrenched.
You can say whatever you want. Doesnt make it true. And requoting it thinking that’s sufficient to change someone’s mind shows how out of touch you are with discourse as well. Just keep shouting the same thing over and over and eventually it’ll be true. Sound familiar?
But this solution doesnt kill any billionaires, install linux, implement communism or defund the police! It accomplishes nothing!
Goddam you sound so insufferable. You love your ineffective, status-quo, compromise-with-naked-fascists, liberal Democrats, and you want me to love them too. They don’t fucking represent me or my values. If I vote for them, my concerns are ignored until the next campaign when I’m told my concerns are unrealistic fantasies and that while there is certainly no hope of improving things, they can get worse more slowly than with the Republicans.
Democrats are a failure as a party in opposition to conservatism (or even fascism!). Why is it so much to expect for party leaders to show some fucking leadership? Do politics. Have a vision and do more than pretend to fight for it. Make room in the party for the left if you want our votes.
You do realize that the previous commenter was joking right?
At the end of the day, people have no option but to vote for the lesser of two evils, hense why people need to “Do politics” and create better parties or infiltrate existing ones and improve them from the inside. For those who can’t do that, voting to minimize harm is the best many can do. By not voting, you choose to let the status quo remain the same or worse, regress.
I heard that when you install Linux for the first time, a billionaire dies. The only way to stop this is for a right-winger to clap three times and say “I believe in the free market”
as if someone isn’t going to end up in that seat regardless of what you do???
Lol. Lmao even.
You sent my brain in circles here for a minute. Dude definitely means, “skip the vote and some jackass is gonna end up getting elected anyway and you will have had no say over who it was. When that person has folks seigin’ and heilin’ at the library you’ll wish it had been the other guy.”
That’s for sure what he meant, but that sentence was just too primed to not cherry pick it and giggle a bit.
People can’t possibly be that stupid that they don’t realize this, right? …Right?