I agree with conservatives that strict boarders are necessary for nation states.
They call it a necessity evil, I use it as an argument to abolish all states.
Wouldn’t removing or abolishing borders result in more invasions and wars, not fewer? Weak or unprepared nations would no longer have allied agreements for protection and would surely be under attack.
I think the point is there just wouldn’t be Nation-states anymore, just a single united world. Partially because communism is definitionally stateless and classless (by Marx at least).
How would removing borders unite people? There’d still be religious, cultural, and racial differences to fight over, as well as interest in your neighbor’s desirable resources.
potentially, it’s really dependent on any given geographical region and the military capability in that area i guess.
I don’t actually know what would stop this, on a global level, aside from a global military force, so arguably you could refer to it as a “single nation earth” i guess.
Yes, this is the entire reason behind the contemporary idea of the geographic border defining the political state. If we just hit “reset” after the war and all agree that states should embrace political sovereignty which isn’t tied to ethnic divisions, then slowly it will kind of all blur into one big quasi-federal good time.
This has actually worked decently well in most places, with some notable exceptions.
I don’t think it would have that effect at all… abolishing all nations and states would mean the massively wealthy corporations that are wealthier than most nations and states would become the de facto super powers of the world. Governments are the only thing keeping the likes of Meta, Google, Apple, nVidia, etc. From having private militaries and literally taking over the world. If you want to abolish all nations and states, you need to gut capitalism first and make sure these corporations can’t just become the new and far worse government.
How does removing borders ridicule capitalism? Maybe I’m misunderstanding your use of guy as a verb.
Border have to exist to some degree, simply from a management perspective. Even if we threw all state and country borders away, it’d be literally impossible for a single government to effectively govern the world. You’d need to divide it all up into smaller regions to be managed. Otherwise, we’d might as well just fall back into the pre-industrial age as infrastructure erodes due to poor governmental oversight and management.
I agree, but those aren’t the kinds of borders OP is talking about, I think. And it’s a naïve simplification, in any case.
I interpret OPs point is about free travel and employment, without restriction or passports. The kind of “no borders” that exists in the EU: any citizen of a country in the EU can travel to, live in, and work in any other EU member country, without restriction, without limitations, and without passport.
It doesn’t require, but is greatly facilitated by, a common currency; and as the EU has demonstrated, there’s a lot of moving parts for this to function well. Having a common set of standards for human rights, having some basic economic model alignment, having mutual non-aggression agreements for a members… they’re all essential components. Heck, I’d suggest that it’d be super-helpful if there was adopted a neutral, universal second language that all member countries require children to take a couple of years of in the public education system - a conlang like Esperanto (by virtue of sheer numbers of speakers), but certainly one where no single country has a advantage by having it be the natural native language, which excludes English.
Anyway, that’s the kind of “no borders” I think OP is talking about, not the governance kind.
Because we had to live with shit in the streets for thousands of years before the invention of a strong government.
Look at what corporations (made up of people) do with the slightest deregulation.
People are, in general, awful.
There’s shit in the streets right now in many large cities due to the failures of the state. The gilded age and industrial revolution spawned numerous public health crises under the watch of governments. The planet is being burned alive due to failures of the state. The solution is more state? Are you sure about that?
No.
No we didn’t.
We did not live with shit in the streets without government. Even the earliest known sites for long term near human habitatation had sanitation at least to the point of handling waste away from living areas. It’s really exclusively the British and British controlled India that had problems with this. Nearly every other known society in history has sensible sanitation. Indoor plumbing is older than monotheism for ducks sake.
A corporation might be made up out of people, but it is also a vertical power structure that gives the people at the top the ability to benefit from being awful, at everyone else’s expense.
People are awful when they have the ability to be awful while benefiting themself and are able to get away with it.
And to say people are generally awful completely ignores the societal strictures imposed on us that reward horrible people.
Is built by people, designed by people, contributed to by people, and most importantly exists in stateless societies. When a community has a common need and enough spare time to address that need, infrastructure happens. A government not only is not needed for this, but objectively halts or stalls progress for a variety of selfish goals of the individual politicians, as humans cannot be politicians, just parasites.
Nooo don’t break up the giant monolithic top down states into smaller federated communities, noooo!
But there’ll still need to have common policies across all of those communities, otherwise you just end up right back at square one with nation states. The US and EU are literally just this, a bunch of states (US) or countries (EU) that agree to allow free travel/living/learning/business/etc between each other with a larger governing body that oversees all of it.
That’s all good as long as this body doesn’t have final control over the other territories.
The US/EU states/countries are also… states and countries, so that could change.
It would also effectively mean that every region in the world would have to have the same laws.
Take Canada and the US. Very similar culturally, very similar economically, but some pretty important differences in human welfare. Like, every Canadian resident pays taxes to support a healthcare system, and if you need healthcare it’s free.
If you eliminated the US/Canadian border, people could live in the US where taxes are cheaper until they had a serious illness, then they could move to Canada to get free treatment whenever necessary, moving back as soon as the treatment was done. That obviously wouldn’t work well.
The only ways to make that work are either to eliminate the border, and have both regions have exactly the same healthcare system, or keep the border and allow both to have different systems.
This has so completely disappeared from discourse over the past four years. I remember when it used to be that “building the wall” was stupid at best and bigoted at worst. But now, it’s all, “Of course we agree that we need a strong border, but we’re the ones who will actually do it, Trump’s all talk.”
It’s always the Republicans that get to set which values and goals the country persues, while the Democrats just run on pragmatism and efficiency. It’s like they’re allergic to making moral claims.
Oh, oh no, no no no no no, No. this isn’t a one party system, this is something far worse, this is what comes exactly right before a one party system. That is a two radicalized polarized adversarial party system. One must go but neither will leave willingly, there is more concentration of money and power in these two parties than possibly any other group on earth and maybe through out all history, make no mistake the only thing that will hold the country back from civil war is the Bomb, and that is only a maybe.
We might not quite be that bad yet but all the peaces are in place and adversarial moves are already being made.
it’s really not one party.
To be clear we have one party, that is effectively fascist, and another party that is, center left/right and very moderate.
An important party of governing is listening to constituents. They border is the second highest concern of voters (behind the economy) and an overwhelming majority want stricter border controls. Being a good public servant involves listening to the public.
So, the Democrats don’t listen to the majority of voters when they want free education, Medicare for All, or an arms embargo on Israel, but when it comes to stricter border controls, they’re all ears for some reason.
but when it comes to stricter border controls, they’re all ears for some reason.
well there’s a really obvious reason for this one.
Currently the border asylum processing chain is incredibly swamped, up the point of multiple years of backlog, which is why temporary status citizens are a thing. Though not to the same degree as the UK. The whole point behind border control and immigration policy is to fix this problem, actually push the asylum cases for these people through, and get them real citizenship (or not, and get rid of them, that’s how it works.)
This is arguably a human rights issue.
So, the Democrats don’t listen to the majority of voters when they want free education,
we have free state education, primary education only though. Republicans want to get rid of this, i don’t think you’ll see kamala harris saying she doesn’t want it. Though free secondary education is obviously the implication here, i figure it’s worth pointing out.
Medicare for All
biden has done numerous things for healthcare in his term. Same for obama, though again, not universal socialized healthcare, so not really the implication but it’s worth noting.
or an arms embargo on Israel
i’m not going to talk much about this because i keep getting banned over these topics for some reason. But idk how much popular support there is for this one, i haven’t looked at polling, i wouldn’t be surprised if it was a popular position though. That very well might be the case, however if you’re asking why the US is supporting Israel, the answer is that it’s militarily strategic. That’s the unfortunate but real answer there.
Which polls show an “overwhelming majority” want stricter borders? Source please.
Tbh I expect that some people are more hawkish on the border now than before because the Democrats switched tacts, and not the other way around, but regardless I haven’t seen any evidence that shows what you’re claiming.
Polls do show a majority is in favour of some currently proposed border measures. “Overwhelming” is a bit much, but that might refer to people in favour of a stricter border policy but not necessarily in favour of the currently proposed measures.
I’ve never met a liberal irl who gives a fuck about borders or immigration. It’s always conservatives that rage about that shit to me.
So you agree that nations should be abolished, including any and all borders?
I think we should strive toward a world without borders. but until all governments can agree that borders serve no good aside from trade boundaries and taxation (which is arguably theft anyway) and should be abolished, then I think they do serve a protective purpose as well. Other nations are territorial so you have to be in defense of the place you live else you risk losing it to more territorial peoples.
No free trade without free movement!
