It’s one thing to have differing views, but I’ve seen enough attempted reddit migrations to be relieved that the popular communities in the fediverse so far haven’t been about crazy racist stuff or other extreme right bullshit.
I am also glad that I’m getting away from reddit’s general political shitposting, which was more left leaning. You couldn’t have any proper discourse on there, and even I with my generally more left leaning views recognized that.
Through constant vigilance, anyways. Every time you see some little fuck dogwhistling about FREE SPEECH or CENSORSHIP, you gotta make sure they aren’t welcome in these parts.
“Far right buffoonery” starts with people batching about how they’re being “”“censored”“” for saying slurs or trying to have “honest conversations about race” or whatever.
Nip 'em in the bud and voila, no Nazis on your kbin.
Obligatory nazi bar story copypasta:
I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, “no. get out.”
And the dude next to me says, “hey i’m not doing anything, i’m a paying customer.” and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, “out. now.” and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed
Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, “you didn’t see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them.”
And i was like, ohok and he continues.
"you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it’s always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don’t want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.
And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it’s too late because they’re entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.
And i was like, ‘oh damn.’ and he said “yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people.”
And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven’t forgotten that at all.
I remember concrete dog whistle accusation generally falling into two categories:
- Checking their comment history revealed either actual Nazi apologia or a general destructive behaviour if you looked deep enough.
- Checking their comment history revealed that the accuser was a pro-censorship and didn’t like dissenting opinions.
My conclusion: dog whistles are a reason to look deeper. Keep an eye on those people. However, don’t just condemn them.
The very point of dog whistles is to appear innocuous and even invisible to “normal people”. False positives are inevitable, and after seeing a dozen actual dog whistles, pareidolia will make you see their shapes everywhere.
I left reddit because of the censorship there and the freedom here. how does that make one a nazi wtf o_O
I was banned from a bunch of subs all at once because I said in one (I’m still not sure which one), that I don’t think children should undergo gender or sex transition.
fascism doesnt play fair in the marketplace of ideas, if you invite a nazi to sit at your table you’ve made it a nazi table. free speech is necessary and important, but we still draw lines for things like defamation and hate speech. another line is not offering a platform to fascists, they arent entitled to a seat at the table to spread fud.
you’re like “but i’m not a nazi” , great, let’s keep it that way.
Importantly, “free speech” is about government, not privately owned spaces.
We believe the government should not be given the power to censor speech, because people are born into it without a choice. Governments could use this power nefariously, and their citizens would have no meaningful recourse.
Nobody is born into Reddit or kbin or Lemmy. If someone doesn’t like the rules of a given instance, they are welcome to leave and free themselves of this burden.
how did this discussion devolve into Nazis? I’m afraid you’re probably part of the problem.
It certainly doesn’t. It’s just that alt rtght absolutely abuses good will and rules to the extreme and systematically hijacks certain phrases.
See Elon Musk’s Twitter as a light example (giving in to authoritarian censorship, and skewing content visibility, while constantly touting himself a “Free speech absolutist”), or the_donald from Reddit, which was mostly made of bots, conspiracy theorists and some sane, but malicious people, banning anyone who’s even slightly misaligned.
Some people like the previous commenter are then incorrectly shortcutting hijacked slogans to the alt right. Which was their goal to start with - increasing the friction, uncertainty and division.
To elaborate about free speech we want to mantain sensible environment. So we need to give a boot to astroturfing bots and far, far right neonazis. Though as with most things, moderation is the key.
Elon’s acquisition of Twitter serves as an insightful case study of how a corporate CEO can turn what used to be a diverse, tolerant, and bountiful community of netizens with no home for hate speech and misinformation into a sad capitalist bloodbath.
Please take note, Huffman. And please take note, the internet in general.
Yes, but the “censorship” and “freedoms” they talk about isn’t about malicious censorship (I.e. Spez going around quietly editing dissenting comments) or freedom about how our content is used (I.e. Reddit refusing to let people delete their comments).
Their version is about spreading misinformation and hate speech of all kinds, alongside racist and facist ideologies unfiltered and unimpeded. They’re malicious actors acting like victims.
We don’t want any of that, we want all folks to feel welcome, which is why we have to shoot that down. To maintain a tolerant society, we must only be intolerant of the intolerant.
we want all folks to feel welcome
That’s another thing they’ll tell you, to add to your point. They’ll say general society, or lefties, are unwelcoming hypocrits for expressing the need for inclusion while not including fascists.
They’ll word the same opinions in a million ways until they find the way that gets you to allow them to continue blabbering intolerant bull crap.
Reddit was filled with a special brand of retards always trying to police language always acting smug about taking about some weird moral high road it is exhausting to deal with. People irl dont have such tight asses about speech. And permabanning someone for having an opinion you dont agree with is an abuse of power (not like it matters much to people who are so zealous about policing public morality). Obviously dont be a shitter and start spouting off trump supporters special brand of koolaid but if you feel like trans women should not compete with biological women in professional womens sports then you are free to think that way.
Speaking of speech:
Using the word “retard” as a derogatory term is pretty offensive to those born with developmental defects. It’s similar to how we used to use “gay” in a similar way a few decades ago. It’s pretty shitty.
Some right ppl are kinda hijacking the terms “free speech” and “censorship” because they get censored for their bs a lot (and rightfully though). Since their posts get deleted a lot they scream for “free speech” and are against “censorship”. Reminds me how they appropriated some symbols in the past…
“The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.” - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
I for one welcome our intolerant of intolerance server admins across the fediverse.
I get why you’re posting this comic and I contextually agree with you. However, the comic itself is bad, and it distorts quite a bit what Popper said.
The quote in the Wikipedia link that you’ve shared is considerably better:
Less well known [than other paradoxes] is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.
Sorry, but what comic are you referring to? Some other users also referenced panels of a comic, but I don’t see any comic—or any link other than to Wikipedia.
Has the user edited it out?
Either it was edited in and that edit didn’t reach your instance, or Lemmy doesn’t like something about how Kbin does images. Either way, here’s a direct link to the comic (you’ll have seen it before, it’s posted a lot).
lemmy users can’t see embedded kbin images in comments. here’s the link to the embedded comic.
But we have out fair share of Mao and Stalin lovers and Xi loveboys. It’s very simmilar. But I guess they are mostly contained to one or two instances.
Yeah, that also sucks, but on the other side Reddit had those too. Over half of leftist subreddits was plagued by them in fact.
I really liked /r/latestagecapitalism but I got banned for talking smack about China, and how the authoritarianism of the USSR and its child states didn’t line up with the values they tried to espouse.
Permanently banned. Appeal ignored. Disappointing, but good riddance I suppose.
Indeed, people tend to forget that the left-right meet isn’t a half circle, but a full circle. You lean far enough one way on either side and you start wandering into the other side.
Nah, horseshoe theory is bullshit. Militant far left, and militant far right are shitty for very different reasons.
horseshoe theory and the political compass are both kinda silly tho, left and right are more like collections of allied ideologies than a precise value that can be placed on a graph or spectrum.
When the destination is militant authoritarism and fascists, how you got to that point doesn’t really matter.
Fascists, alt-right, tankies, and other extremists will kill any chance we have of talking normally in this place, so they cannot be allowed to take root in the mainstream instances.
These instances are like pirate ships pursuing us.
But they don’t write from their original instance name… nonono, I’m sure that they are popping up here with a fresh duplicate account:
“Hello, let me explain some politics to you, but first let me nuke your reputation with a few multi accounts”.
And you end up discussing with a whooping 5 downvotes as a starter. It gives the tone for the other people who want to discuss and see you as “this guy”.
That’s like closing the eyes. I like tje political communities, that was the main reason I was on reddit.
/r/Politics was a pretty terrible place. I hope you aren’t suggesting you want that here.
Thanks to the beauty of both open source models and activitypub, the fact that the lead developer is a tankie does not affect Lemmy users in any way because their sphere of influence ends at lemmygrad and lemmy.ml . If you’re a user of those instances and want out, you can just create another account in another instance and still can access any communities you want.
I keep hearing this, and I still don’t care. Being from America, I’ve never even heard that term.
Reddit was run by a capitalist corporation. In America, the Left should hate that, but most of Reddit was decidedly liberal.
See? It doesn’t matter. Use the platform or don’t. Block what you don’t want to see. People are going to post different opinions in public spaces.
this partisan nonsense is the biggest threat to the fediverse rn. when will people understand that the real fight is down vs. up, the little guy vs the elite mafia. left/right as an endless blamegame they use to keep us fighting each other, while they steal from everyone. the old divide & conquer, still works like charm. every other platform is already infected with it. if it gets to the fediverse, we’re just gonna end up with a bunch of oppressive echo chambers much like reddit. if that happens I’ll be gone
Little guys lapping up right wing propaganda sure make it extremely difficult to fight the elite, tho.
They become merely another instrument of the “up” of suppressing the “down” when you’re feeling frustrated, helpless, and hopeless all the time.
As opposed to the clearly smarter, enlightened little guys on the left. You’re going exactly what they’re describing.
You’re implying that the left and right suppress each other equally, but frankly it’s only the right trying to fuck over their fellow man for profit and power. Got nothing to do with being more enlightened or smarter. Compassion though… Ye, the left are more compassionate.
Of course feel free to prove me wrong…
Lets just take this to the extreme and see where shit lands.
Take the common leftist view. What happens to the country if we “got” our way. Everyone has healthcare coverage. Everyone with regard to their gender, orientation, race are treated equally and with dignity/respect. Everyone has a living wage. Everyone that wants to go to college can go to college without huge debt. Oh, we have to figure out how to pay for it.
Man that sounds fucking awful.
Now take it where the common right wing idiot that is consumed by the culture war wants to take it. Gay marriage outlawed. Transpeople wiped from the face of the earth. Fuck minorities. No minimum wage. Lower taxes for the 1%. Privatized social security, privatized medicare. No federal minimum wage. Gov’t restriction of free speech.
And yes, I say right wing dipshits want to restrict free speech because they are the morons removing books. To quote Rage Against the Machine, “They don’t have to burn the books, they just remove them” That is exactly what the right wing morons are doing.
The right getting their way leads to a dystopian shithole where only the wealthy have decent lives.
I would actually be ok arguing economics with a conservative. But the conservatives lost that fight when they embraced the religious right and decided to economically spend just as much as the liberals. Both parties are big spenders. So economics aren’t a talking point anymore. It is purely a culture war that the right started.
Definitely smarter than the group that thinks Trump should be a president and tries to deny science at every turn. You don’t need me to tell you which group it is that denied global warming, denied the existence of covid-19, denied universal healthcare, host the Nazis and white supremacists, and so on, do you?
And when confronted with these kinds of questions the typical reaction is to ignore it or make excuses rather than looking at their own group with insight. Any conservatives who think it’s okay for Nazis and extremists to house themselves in their group might as well join them. Otherwise, stop making excuses and look at the problems.
it’s important to see that both sides have extremes and to assume that anyone who tips the scale “left” or “right” is somehow more right or more wrong is what keeps us from being able to find common ground. turning the words “conservative” and “liberal” into slurs is equally damaging. we both have ways of lashing out at each other when we are not the enemy. I bet we can agree that extremism is dangerous regardless of which side of the fence it resides on.
Ha, you’re being downvoted for being reasonable and speaking basic truths. Has this place already become what made reddit such a shit show?
While I agree with you, class Co sciousness and warfare requires unity. I cannot stand with someone, be our situations as similar as they might be, if their stance is ‘but not the brown/gay/whatever people’
All or none. I will not stand for discrimination. Not overt, not veiled as ‘discussion’, not ever.
I always love it when people reduce debates around whether the public existence of LGBT people is actually pedophilia or whether Black people being routinely murdered by police is an actual problem to being nothing more than a mere distraction against the Real Fight against the evil elite lizard people.
Listen, it’s cool that these are the kinds of issues that obviously don’t affect you or the people around you. But not everyone actually agrees that literally every issue ever can be reduced to being a sideshow of a greater class-based conflict. Do you not see how deeply patronizing it is to be told that the debates about your core identity are meaningless distractions that we need to stop talking about? I can see it being easy to believe that if your core identity isn’t routinely made to be a political issue that can be debated, but not all of us are so lucky.
What OP doesn’t seem to want to understand is that Left vs Right is Up vs Down.
The origins of Left vs Right as terms come from the days of the French Revolution. There was a vote called to ascertain the power of the King. Those who wanted to grant the King an Absolute Veto were asked to sit on the right side of the speaker’s podium, those who were against, or wanted no king at all, were asked to sit on the left. There were many such votes.
Thus left vs right was born, the left represented the power of the people, and the right represented the power of the nobility.
Then conservatism was created, replacing birthright nobility for those who were merely rich and powerful.
Right and Left then became shorthand in the press for Conservatism vs those with more Democratic ideals, be it communist, socialists, or merely those who believed in taxing the rich and using that money to improve the lives of everyone. The press in Europe used the terms from almost the beginning, but it took a while for those terms to reach America.
Sadly, the Right figured out pretty quickly how to suppress and demonize the Left. They also figured out how to turn hatred to their advantage, to expand the ranks of the Right Wing supporters at the expense of the Left. Because you don’t personally need to be super rich if the people you’re taught to hate are super poor.
The thing is, the Left cannot abide attacks on those people. Which is why minority and lgbt+ rights are such a big part of the platform. Because those people are in fact part of The People, and the Left is the Power of the People. The goal is to lift everyone up, to protect everyone equally under the law.
After all, as Frank Wilhoit said;
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect”
The way I see it, is that they are not exactly the same, but there seems to be a greater tendency in the “up-directed” people to be also right-leaning, also a greater tendency in the “down-directed” people to be also left-leaning, which makes sense, since many elements in those pairs of tendencies/ideologies almost line up, or are at least very compatible.
However, there IS also right libertarianism, and left authoritarianism, but those seem to be less probable than the opposites.
Take a look at the Political Compass mappings of famous politicians and political parties in different parts of the world: The up-right and down-left quadrants are almost always the most populous, while there are dots in the other two quadrants.
(See the “Elections” section on the left column, click on several elections in different locations.)
they dont mean up down on the political compass, they mean working class vs owning class
I would argue the up vs down is left vs right. Because it’s ultimately a fight against capitalism and fascism. Because while it is ultimately rich vs poor, they’re using the bigotry to get people to follow them, and simply ignoring genocide in order to hopefully get poor people put of poverty just means millions die along the way. We can’t just say fuck it let the trans people die cause I’m poor. Then you’re no better than the people you claim to be against.
So it should just be rich vs poor, but it’s not, because too many people fall for their rich’s tactics.
Voat was created as an alternative for all the nazis that got banned on Reddit so it was always designed to be full of shit. This sphere of the fediverse managed to keep clear of these people. They are able to create their own sphere that is not federated with this one but that is not a problem for us here.
I’m gonna take a big guess as to why we see less of ‘em. It may be a bit complicated for them to join. Many are used to a one-stop-shop website. Strength in numbers, I suppose.
I mean, there instances that exist as havens for far right folks. But they are not defeated with the bulk of the instances. See the exploding heads thing.
And main original dev is apparently a “tankie” which appears to be a communist apologist of some kind. For this part I’m just reporting what I’ve seen others say. I know nothing about him myself.
A tankie is a Soviet communist apologist/Stalin fetishist. Communism by itself isn’t something you need to really defend in that way, as it just means that the plan is to distribute the means of production and decision making abilities. For example Tito in Yugoslavia held a multiethnic state in the fucking Balkans so well to the point that people still identify as Yugoslavs even if its not an ethnicity but a state affiliation for a country that hasnt existed for 30 years. Same thing goes for Greece, WW2 would have been a complete Nazi victory if the communist partisan militias hadnt held up the Italians and Germans for so long.
The thing with tankies is that they are too blinded by ideology to notice that the Soviets and Maoists were/are just Totalitarians in disguise.
A tankie is specifically an apologist for militant authoritarians who claim to be communists. There are many, many more theories of communism than Leninism and Stalin worship.
Shit, the Fediverse is functionally an experiment in anarchism.
This is my thought exactly. As it becomes easier and easier to use these sites, with apps and everything, we will start to see more crazy and stupid conservatives.
They’re too stupid to figure it out at the moment. Most of them at least. And the ones who aren’t, are the ones who are aware that they’re ideology is trash, but they are using it for financial and/or tax reasons.
Wasn’t it spun off/got popular because fatpeoplehate or something got banned? It was just a hole for shit crawl towards to for their freeze peach.
I’m surprised there isn’t a fat people hate here. They got all sorts of politics from that group.
