I am hesitant to put my hands on the chest of a woman who hasn’t given consent.
Understandable, but you only need to do it if there is no pulse. If you are doing chest compressions to save their life, I am sure the majority would be quite happy with not dying. You don’t need to take off their top, and you are pressing on their sternum rather than their breasts. You can’t really mistake CPR for anything else if you are doing it correctly.
I’m pretty sure most places in the states have laws protecting people but there have been people who were sued for giving cpr to someone who wasn’t very grateful.
You don’t need to take off their top
Well, you do if using AED. Tom Scott has video on those too: https://youtu.be/ecVHYg4_vZw
I know, but I was just assuming chest compressions, no other tools. If you’re strapping electrodes to an unconscious person, and the machine is talking you through the CPR steps, it’s even less likely to be assumed to be anything than what it is.
CPR does not save lives. It preserves a dead body until an AED or ambulance can bring it back to life. You need to remove her shirt and often bra (if there is a wire it must go, otherwise only if in the way) to use an AED so if some item of clothing is in the way don’t worry about removing it.
Note that the above is generic CPR training that doesn’t respect local laws which can say something different.
AED’s will not help someone whose heart is stopped (i.e. no pulse). They are used to shock the heart into restoring its normal rhythm. It will not start a heart that has stopped beating.
Please do not say CPR does not save lives, it 100% does. And in the United States our Good Samaritan laws protect anyone from liability if they are acting in good faith trying to help someone.
I’m a paramedic in the United States, hold a certification as a flight medic, nothing I can bring, in a helicopter or an ambulance will do anything for anyone if high quality CPR isn’t performed.
To break things down, yes in adults early defibrillation does make a huge difference but in kids it is literally high quality CPR that saves them. If you’d like I’d be happy to break down the details of resuscitation, but without CPR until I can get there and attempt resuscitation, then no matter how much I throw at someone to try to get their heart beating again, they’ll still be brain dead.
You can’t, that doesn’t mean that some white knight in the crowd doesn’t.
While I agree the risk is low, it’s not zero.
Youre afraid to save a persons life because there is a near zero chance that a very unlikely hypothetical situation may occur? Youre okay with letting someone die because you might get verbally chided, or worse, have someone misunderstand and be slightly rough with you? Wow.
I honestly can’t imagine being this scared of the world.
One of the few cases where consent of anything can be assumed is lifesaving of a person unable to respond. One of the first steps of cpr is to seek a response to ensure that the person is unconscious before then confirming no pulse.
But yeah I get why it’s awkward
Yeah but the mob around me watching me touch her breasts might not know that.
I’m not CPR certified or anything, but I think if you’re just grabbing titties you’re probably doing it wrong.
The instructors advise you to speak aloud your actions as you do them. Also helps if you have already levelled out instructions to the rent a crowd to perform specific tasks like send for help and get the defib and you three who said yes to cpr training let’s line up and take turns doing cpr.
…of course, the training to be comfortable giving these instructions is not really done.
If you’re touching her tits, you’re not giving proper CPR. Proper CPR happens just below the sternum. That’s well below any kind of bra band. If her tits are that low, she’s either an EE cup or 80 years old.
Then put whichever Karen looks fiercest in charge of compressions. Either she’ll get in there and do them, or she’ll demur, in which case you say you will and she should watch so she can start when you get tired. That makes her your witness. Don’t forget to tell someone else to call emergency services.
I am hesitant to put my hands on the chest of a person who hasn’t given consent.
Someone who has no heartbeat automaticlly has given consent to receive CPR.
If you’re doing CPR they’re effectively dead before you start. If you’re the only one there, no witnesses unless you manage to save her. If you’re not alone, you should tell them you’re going to start CPR and order them to call 911 or 999 or whatever. Or volunteer to call while they start compressions. Then you can take over/take turns and vouch for each 's intentions.
If you have cpr or aed training…and a person is unconscious, consent is implied. Especially if you follow training. You felt for a pulse and/or they were not breathing, you will not get sued in this country. If someone manages to get it to court, they will lose.
I am a certified CPR and AED , a registered WFR and just had a training class on the matter. As long as you follow proper protocol you are ok. And I’d like to add, as a man, yeah, I’d be nervous also exposing a womans chest in a crowd, people are stupid, but you can probably save a life.
The more significant finding here is 40% of people don’t get CPR - I think this mostly comes down to public ignorance. It’s not like most schools make their students CPR certified. I got mine through Boyscouts, but a lot of people don’t really get that kind of education.
I wouldn’t be surprised if that explains the gender difference, too. Due to ignorance a lot of people might not really grasp the difference between chest compressions and fondling someone’s chest 🙄
In germany, you need to take an 8 hour first aid course to get your driver’s license.
It’s better than nothing, but it’s been 5 years for me and I’m not sure if I could still do it properly.
Which is another reason why drivers licenses and the FA course should be repeated every few years.
The amount of people who don’t understand road laws or misremember them is insane
And still my first aid teacher to get my German driver’s license said that the survival rate for people whose heart stops is worse in Germany than the US
There’s more to it than that. CPR certifications only last two years (at least in the US) and there’s also the liability included with performing CPR that they cover in the class. If you perform CPR but are found to not have a current certification then you can get in a heap of financial debt as your not truly covered by the protections the certification can provide you, mainly around the “permission” to perform the act. Ribs can be broken and lungs can be punctured simply by performing CPR normally with the required amount of pressure needed.
Call 911 and then follow the instructions of the operator who is trained in teaching CPR over the phone in these situations, and knows the latest. That you had training means you are more likely to understand instructions given ,and if not you were following directions of someone else.
You need to call 911 anyway. CPR is only performed on dead people, you need an AED (or similar tools in an ambulance) to bring someone back to life.
Calling 911 is the right way to go. Activating emergency response system. And if you don’t make sure someone else does and tells you they have. So many times people assume someone else called and no one has.
There was a push at one point in time to teach bystander CPR, which focuses on compressions at a rate of 100-120 a minute with a little less focus on landmarks and more “middle of the chest and go”. It also taught that people typically have about 20 minutes of reserve oxygen in their venous system and that compressions continuously increased survivability by keeping the circulation going through compressions. Considering average ems response time in the US, it seemed to reduce confusion and encouraged more community response (not wanting to do mouth to mouth is a fear people have). Not sure if it’s still being taught, but it was fairly well received at the time.
Call 911 yes, but if you have training, tell them to stfu and let you do it. They try to have you count out loud with them, but the delay over the phone makes you go off rhythm constantly. I threw the phone across the room when I was giving CPR to my dad. He didn’t make it, and I often wonder if it was because of the shitty beginning of the CPR regimen.
I got mine through Boyscouts, but a lot of people don’t really get that kind of education.
Unless you’re a kid or a den mom, you don’t have CPR training. It only lasts a few years.
Well, no, I have expired training. That’s still better than literally nothing, it’s not like the knowledge just vanishes. I think I could follow the 911 operator’s instructions pretty well.
… though actually, yeah, I probably should fix that.
Yeah you’re right, it’s definitely better than nothing. And yea you should take another course - it’s fun! Different instructors have different styles and highlight different things/experiences. I just renewed recently and was surprised at how fuzzy I was on some of the pop questions.
Well maybe she has a boyfriend
One time, I put my hand out to stop a kid from running into the street.
Most people were like “Woah that kid almost died.” But one Karen looking woman had a “How dare you touch that child” look.
I’m not going to stop saving kids who run into the street. But it did make me question when to involve myself or not. And I can see a lot of people hesitating because some fuckface has something stupid to say.
You inferred one look from a stranger experiencing a traumatic event, that apparently wasn’t reinforced by conversation with her after the fact!? I don’t think you should modify anything about your instincts or responses…
You psychoanalyzed him from one comment on an Internet forum without a single reply or anything?
See how that sounds?
Uh, no? No one’s analyzing here! I basically told them to trust their instincts, rather than defer to the minority opinion of “all men are pedophiles” (based on their interpretation of the Karen’s response). Same advice I would give male lifeguards who would hesitate in possibly saving a life because maybe one person would be hyper-sensitive to any contact. Do what’s good and true and right immediately, and deal with haters later…
All it takes is one person to accuse you for your life to be ruined. Such is the reality of being a man.
Yep. People have strange selective views on things.
I was standing with the car at the crossing where it enters the main road. A kid came racing down the bike path from the local primary school on his scooter and tried to get around my car without wasting speed, i.e. slowing down. Physics said: “NO” in no uncertain terms, and the kid kissed the road in front of my car. I got out to help, but he already got up, probably more annoyed about loosing speed than anything else, answered negative on my inquiry if he was hurt or needed help, and was off like lighting.
Two days later, the police was at my door, responding to a neighbors claim that I had run over a kid that day…
Exactly. As much as I believe in being a good person and trying to stop others from coming to harm, there is now a not-nonsignificant chance that I end up being prosecuted for something as a result of stepping in to attempt to save a life. It deincentivizes such activities.
A man stopped my son with his hand from crossing at the signal because a car didn’t see him and could have mowed him down. I think a lot about how that could have gone badly if the man had second guessed himself for even a moment. Legally and socially, we need to be on the side of anyone who makes a split second decision to help in a crisis.
Some US states do not have Good Samaritan laws. This means that you could save someone’s life, they could sue you, and they could win. It’s pretty fucked up.
This sounded strange to me, so I looked it up. This Wikipedia article suggests all US states have a good samaritan law, and some extend that further by requiring bystanders to reasonably provide assistance. However, who is liable and to what extent appears to vary. Additionally, interactions with other state laws could complicate things.
All that said, I admittedly don’t know much about good samaritan laws beyond this article.
Some of those laws are more recent, I believe. I got CPR certified in the 90s and the police officer instructing the course did indeed warn us to be careful about saving people as we could possibly get sued.
If I had to guess, it was a symptom of the sue-everyone-for-everything craze in those days, crossed with state laws that didn’t yet provide explicit protections for good samaritans because you generally don’t try to harm someone who went out of their way to save your life.
I’m currently certified and we are told that unconscious means consent and once you determine they’re not breathing (only criteria) then you perform cpr. I’ve been certified for over 7 years as a dispatcher and we often provide these exact instructions. Since we deal with the whole of the US we use national protocols which are valid throughout the country (emd epd protocols) and unless you know for SURE they are breathing you perform CPR every time. Doesn’t matter if they have a DNR. Unless of course they just had a seizure then you wait. But if you can’t confirm breathing or you say they’re snoring we are going straight to chest compressions. I’ve been trained by some of the most knowledgeable people who I was lucky to have the privilege to learn from. This training has served me very well.
There’s no state that requires you to do more than a 911 call to report the emergency.
That depends. If you are a professional you may be required to do more. Professional includes being on the office emergency team.
Can I get some qualifications so I can send them a bill, if this happens?
Every state has something.
But that only provides legal protection from lawsuits after the fact; generally, they require that you act in a reason way, in the scope of your training (or under direction of say 911 dispatch,)
Some will also mandate that you call 911 immediately- though no state requires more than that
My understanding of it is that CPR has a lot of negative side effects that we’re usually not told about or aware of, like cracking or breaking a rib during compressions.
Not that this is in any way good, but I think some have successfully sued their saviors due to complications from CPR.
I think a law should be passed that says you can’t sue someone for complications of saving your life, but, you know…
@OceanSoap @alienanimals Sounds like it’s time to push for Good Samaritan laws in every state. We have one in California. And yes, there can be side effects, but these aren’t limited to GSs. Medical personnel can inflict them as well (damage with intubation comes to mind), and if the injuries are consistent with life saving measures, they are protected. Why shouldn’t GSs also be covered?
