Israel is a product of European Colonization. It predates WW1 and WW2. After learning more about it, IMO it shouldn’t exist as it does today.
Jews and Christians and Muslims lived in the area since the religions were invented, we don’t need a European colony to still exist.
Muslims are known for their tolerance towards other religions. That’s why all around the middle east you have thriving communities of pluralism.
muslims can’t even get along amongst themselves lmao, just look at syria ( do i even need to elaborate?) or suni vs shi (saudi arabia vs iran) or yemen where not a single jew exists today or jordan which fought Palestinianians regularly or Lebanon which was once a christian majority or sudan or iraq or qatar which has literal slaves
seriously muslims are known for tolerance? are you high?
Only a couple generations separate Auschwitz and Al-Shifa. The lesson we can draw from this is that ethnostates will always end in misery
nah, “the lesson to draw was that the Nazis clearly had the right intentions but the wrong targets, tho it was the Jews fault they got captured and killed in concentration camps” ~current Israeli ruling coalition when talking about the victims of the holocaust.
most of the Jews that went and settled in Israel after the Holocaust were primarily from regions that Nazis never occupied, they came to create their ethno-state, ironically they also despise the survivors as failures who didn’t fight back, even more ironically most of the survivors of the Holocaust were critics of the Zionists (who could have guessed the victims of fervent nationalism actually had something against that very same thing?).
I think that’s the funniest/saddest aspect of all this. My kids are half Jewish. My ex-wife is Jewish so needless to say I am well aware of the complexity of the history surrounding Israel and Palestine.
But damn if Jews have lost the plot.
Agreed, but let’s use the term z*onist because there are plenty of Jews who denounce this despicable regime.
Even the history of zionism is more complex, and it has been captured by the worst demons of the ideology.
Sure, it’s inherently problematic for anyone who values the separation of state and religion, and in a modern political landscape it does read like a recipe for disaster. Based on the old testament and Jewish history however, it’s easy to see the romantic appeal of Zion without it at all justifying the terrors of modern zionism.
So I agree with your point completely - I just wouldn’t treat Zion as a slur. That said I also don’t think zionism in its contemporary form has any legitimate role to play, and it’s a cancer on the world like so many isms before it.
Respectfully disagree. This ain’t about Zionism although it definitely plays a big part.
Well, some Jews have lost the plot, and certainly Jewish communities are not immune to the sociological conditions that drive people towards segregationist politics and even genocides.
That is to say, we all lost the plot, but we love capitalism and imperialism more than we fear watching society devolve into hate, genocide and warfare.
The IDF took to annihilating Gaza like SWAT in the US to COD gamers in poor communities. If that’s not a sign to reconsider our priorities, I don’t know what is. But it certainly implies we’re still savage apes not ready for the big leagues of civilization and exploration.
But damn if Jews have lost the plot.
Please don’t buy into the Israeli narrative that what they’re doing represents all of us. I’m a Jew, but I’m not an Israeli, and recognize that Hamas and the Israeli government both suck.
We can criticize Israel, while condemning Hamas terrorists
And we can make aid to Israel contingent on future improvements on the treatment of Palestinians.
At this point, I would argue that Israel has done more for Hamas PR and popularity than anything in the last 20 years.
I was pissed off at Israel when I learned that we can’t have a single-payer Health Care Program because we are too busy funding the one Israel has. Learning how they treat Palestinians just puts a seal on the fuck Israel deal.
Israel is a little bigger in area and population than the SF Bay Area. We don’t lack single payer health care because we are paying for Israel’s. We don’t have it because our government is in the pockets of those who benefit from us not having it.
There is absolutely nothing the US does in regards to foreign policy that comes at the expense of accessible healthcare. The US already spends more per capita than any other country.
The US actually spends more public money on healthcare per capita than almost any other country. And then Americans pay for private insurance on top of it. And for all that, many Americans don’t even get healthcare. Contrary to libertarian propaganda, a publicly funded program is more efficient, as are many publicly funded services over their privatized alternatives.
the same israel which offered countless peace offers to the Palestinians(which promptly rejected them) or the same israel that literally pulled out of gaza entirely leaving them the full option to make a thriving city state like Singapore, but instead they decided to buy guns and rockets and make everyone’s life miserable?
Do you think if Hamas dissappear tomorrow, those who throw garbage will stop?
The reverse. If the garbage throwers stopped, if the Israeli state ensured that Palestinians were treated humanely and were ensured civil rights (say in accordance with the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights) then Palestinians would have no need for revolutionary organizations like Hamas or Hezbollah. But so long as the Israeli state disregards the suffering of Palestinians, so long as Israelis are allowed to commit violence against Palestinians, so long as the IDF seeks to massacre Palestinians, there will be need for militants to fight against them, and so Hamas and Hezbollah will find cause and find recruits among the friends and family slain in Israel’s name.
The thing is we all know this. This is COIN 101 material from two to four centuries ago. And short of the threat of nuclear holocaust, humans historically are eager to hate more than they are willing to do what is right to create and preserve peace. Netanyahu and the IDF have demonstrated to be no different, even when the US warned them of its own hard-learned lessons in Fallujah. Gaza is proving to be even worse than was predicted.
If the elements of Hamas, namely the promising of death to all Israelites from Palestinians disappeared, then relations would improve and yes the garbage would stop. But it would still be a process that takes time to build trust between the people.
Ted Kaczynski made a lot of really solid points, but bombing people, especially civilians, is wrong.
People still cheer for Luke Skywalker though.
Humans are more tribalistic than rational. They pick sides and justify later.
The Death Star was a military installation that had already shown itself to be aggressive with death tolls in the literal billions. Not a fair comparison.
To be fair, Tarkin misused what was clearly a mining tool. Planets are too valuable a resource to blast into high-velocity debris. The Tarkin doctrine only works if Imperial policy is fair to begin with (which it isn’t) otherwise it is the reverse of common COIN theory (hearts and minds).
Tarkin behaved stupidly and provoked a terrorist attack that successfully (and spectacularly) disabled a huge Imperial asset.
Yeah but the second time it wasn’t even finished yet. They were still under construction.
We can condemn violence, while recognizing that it didn’t come about in a total vacuum as people play it up as to paint Palestinians as evil terrorists.
this combined with the orders from IDF that under no circumstances were celebrations or signs of joy allowed when prisoners were returned to their families; fucking ghouls.
prisoners, why were they prisoners again? oh yea that’s right becuase they were literal terrorist
do you want examples? maybe the women who drove with a full gas tank into an israeli border checkpoint near Jerusalem and blew up half her face as well as a police officer’s face and chest - asra jabas, look her up
Calling Israel’s apartheid “modern” to me kind of implies that South Africa’s apartheid, whose transitional period ended in 1994, was somehow “ancient” or “old-fashioned”… Yeah, you can rest assured that apartheid/segregation always has been far too modern.
I mean… It ended. Almost 30 years ago. So it’s not happening in the modern day.
30 years was so long ago.
Flip phones, PAY PHONES and pagers!
That’s how long ago it was.
I agree as I do not consider my IBM PS/1 25mhz system to be a modern computer.
Also South Africa still has massive problems between white and black people. I watched a documentary a few years ago where I black paralympian travelled round South Africa to see how things had changed and he was stunned that black people live in shanty towns outside major cities still, also the guy was shown a rich area with private security patrols and high walled residences and the security kept coming back to look at him, basically not trusting him there.
I was thinking about this recently and it won’t happen given the current climate but what Palestinians need is their own Truth and Reconciliation just like South Africans did. Codify that shit.
Truth and Reconciliation
As a South African I wouldn’t recommend it. We essentially allowed all the murderers, torturers and rapists to get off scott free so that “business as usual” - ie, the looting and pillaging of South Africa’s mineral resources - wouldn’t be disrupted too much.
We literally have gigantic gaps in our history because the Nat regime was allowed to perpetrate one of the largest orgies of evidence destruction in known history while the TRC wasn’t even allowed to subpoena people to testify about anything - and now we still sit with a white population that sees no reason to confront what was done in their name and are pretty much still just as white supremacist as their grandparents were.
It’s only a solution to the liberal types that want to sell feel-good propaganda and little else.
I have a 2200 AMD Sempron running windows XP for nostalgia. This computer is by no means a modern PC. No one in their right mind would consider it modern. Yet it was originally manufactured after 1994. By your logic, it is a modern PC.
Something can be “not-modern” without being ancient.
I mean, if your measure of modernity is just how good home computers were back then, rather than that any substantial number of people had home computers at all, then of course 1994 is going to seem non-modern.
I guess I have a skewed perception of how long ago 1994 was, though, because 1995 was when my parents first came into contact with each other from opposite sides of the globe, through the ol’ information superhighway. For me that makes 1994 seem incredibly recent, even if it was nearly 30 years ago and a lot has changed since then. The '90s were this whole decade of pop culture, technology, and political and social change whose shadow I grew up in, basically the beginning of what I would consider in most contexts to be the “modern day”. But if I had actually been alive and conscious at the time, then maybe I would be more practically aware of the differences between then and now, and hesitate to call it “modern”.
But modernity always is relative. If I were talking specifically about computers, then obviously even a computer from as recently as 2008 would really be stretching the definition of “modern”. But then in another context I might even say that something that happened in 1898 would’ve been “recent”, though I wouldn’t necessarily refer to that as “modern” per se.
Put another way, an apparent slim majority of the world’s population (but not of South Africa’s population) was alive when Nelson Mandela took office. Probably a lot of them were infants or small children at the time, but still: even for the people who weren’t alive at that time, or who were too young to really remember it personally, there are so many people who were very alive and very conscious at the time, that everyone’s bound to know a good few. My mom attended anti-apartheid protests when she was in college, for instance. Mandela himself was president until 1999, and only died in 2013, which it’s hard to believe was already ten years ago.
Zionists: “they Made us do it!”