It’s funny that leftists call him genocide joe when Trump would be actively worse and offer additional manpower.
Complain and downvote how you like, but consider which candidate you actually have a chance of getting to agree to your point of view.
No shit, Biden is a genocidal asshole but at least he’s not trump that’s the whole point of the uncommitted campaign
Who is this “they?” Anyone who is voting “uncommitted” has enough brain cells to know both candidates are bad for the world, which means they have enough brain cells to know Biden is an obvious choice in a Biden v Trump matchup.
This is a dumb take bred from perceived superiority.
actions breed habits
Lmao “I got to the polls in November and my muscle memory took over and I voted uncommitted in the general election, since I did it once 8 months ago I couldn’t resist”. This is like Dunning-Kreuger for life in general.
Or is it a “just don’t do anything” enlightened centrist take?
Just because trump is an infinitely low bar doesn’t mean Biden isn’t actively supporting genocide.
I’m sick of seeing “But Trump is worse!!!1!” whenever there is a discussion of how fucking terrible Biden can be, especially on his candid genocide support. And the cries from the Democratic party to fall in line behind a president that is failing to support the will of the people in that party is a bit shitty, even though it is inevitable in such a hierarchical power structure.
Like, the problem isn’t “who would support genocide less” it is “why the fuck is the president supporting genocide” and the other question we should be asking is “what is causing us to be in the position that we are debating on who is the lesser evil pro genocide candidate”
Also, I’d like to point out that biden is a hardcore zionist. He will never not be a hardcore zionist. He will never be convinced to stop supporting israel, and we will lucky to even convince him to stop supporting israel until the genocide stops. Or to just call for a ceasefire now.
First pass the post says a vote for anyone other than Biden is a vote for Trump. Sadly that’s how the system works. You need preferential voting to send a message of displeasure.
girl u may have missed that this was for the primaries, not the general election
You do not understand how the US primary system works.
This was not the general election vote where Biden will face a fascist.
This was a 2nd term president democratic primary, which the incumbent almost always sweeps. This allows for protest voting with no actual repercussions like fascists winning.
They are protesting the active genocide of the Palestinian people, it is worth the effort to try to enact change which no downsides.
No shit thats how the system works. Its a hierarchical representative democracy with FPTP voting in a capitalist country, and we are seeing the inevitable endpoint of such a system. A system like our glorious failure of “democracy” will end in despots and fascists trying to sieze power through populism.
But you don’t need preferential voting to send a message of displeasure. There is nothing about FPTP that says you are incapable of voicing displeasure, it is done via different means than preferential voting.
The idea that a vote for biden is a vote for trump is a complete fallacy. In this failed republic, we don’t even have popular voting for the president. In many places around the country, your vote literally does not matter because of FPTP voting. If I’m unfortunate enough to live in a deep red state where there is no hope of the GOP losing, what difference does my vote make?
If I am more fortunate and live in a deep blue state, what difference does it make if I don’t vote at all? It’s incredibly unlikely biden will lose there, even if Biden is deeply unpopular amongst the voting base.
If I live in a swing state, you might then have an actual incentive to vote. But there is still the catch on what district you live in, because even in swing states there are some districts that are deel blue or deep red.
Because of the Electoral College the concept that “a vote for anyone other than Biden is a vote for Trump” is complete horseshit for the majority of Americans. This is just a strategy to shame people into voting for someone they don’t like.
Not voting, or voting for third parties is the way to send displeasure with our two parties. Trying to restrict the only ways to voice displeasure is extremely unhealthy for what we claim is a democratic system. It is like taking painkillers to treat what would otherwise be treatable cancer. If you ignore the problem it will grow until it becomes untenable.
Leaving this threat open does a lot to shape policy. If that avenue was closed, the political elite class would have a less incentive to consider the needs of the working class. Considering there is a modicum of “democratic” choice in the US, if the needs are not considered, eventually the political class will make enough mistakes that people give up, and they will lose support, possibly for a long while.
Shaming people to vote is also a genuinely bad strategy. I was fucking pissed about this shit in 2016 and in 2020, even if I despise trump. Being shamed into an action is not exactly a good feeling, and having it repeatedly happen doesn’t exactly breed confidence in the system, it breeds contempt. If you are making a part of your own voting base feel contempt with you or the system, you are shooting yourself in the foot. It might have short term gains, but I worry that you will lose voters in the future.
Finally, this is the primaries. This election does not determine the outcome of the election in a given state or the nation as a whole, but it will demonstrate what could happen if Biden doesn’t change his strategy of ignoring the problem.
I’ll hardcore pass on voting for a treasonous bastard. I’m already amazed that we didn’t nuke the fucking planet when trump was in office. I’m not giving him a second chance.
Same. I’m not going to vote for an christofascist cunt who wants to take my rights as a queer person, or the rights of the people I care about.
I’m simply sick of the “BuT TrUmp!!!1” that is always shouted whenever people criticize biden. Every president is a war criminal. Biden deserves his criticism, even though trump is also culpable.
I think that’s the point behind voting uncommitted in the primary. It’s to put some heat on the candidate that actually has the potential to change their mind and do something. I can’t speak for anyone else, but it’s not as if I’m going to be voting for trump in the actual election and I understand how a 2 party fptp election works enough to put my vote in the “capable of having potential to stop supporting genocide” category.
The Uncommitted Movement’s goal to get high uncommitted voter turnout in the primary so that Joe Biden changes his outdated views on Palestine and Israel is great.
However if people vote uncommitted in the primaries because they are convinced Biden is Genocide Joe then they aren’t going to want to vote for Biden in the general election.
Anyone who thinks someone who has the wherewithal to vote uncommitted to protest the genocide of the Palestinians by Israel in the Democratic-only primary but not realize that the fascist republican party is significantly worse than Biden for the general election is arguing in bad faith.
someone who has the wherewithal to vote uncommitted to protest the genocide of the Palestinians by Israel in the Democratic-only primary
Telling people Biden is Genocide Joe isn’t a nuanced position. People who think Joe Biden equals genocide aren’t voting for him now and aren’t voting for him later. An argument that ignores the inherent cognitive dissidence it would take for someone, who believes Joe Biden is directly the cause of Israel’s genocide of Palestinians, to vote for Joe Biden is disingenuous.
Truth is, I’m likely going to end up voting for Biden in the fall, because for all his faults, he is infinitely better than Trump. But I want him to fucking sweat in the meantime. Because if he sweats, if he realizes he can’t simply take the votes from the left for granted even as he gives nothing to us, maybe he’ll fucking start giving something to us.
I have no illusions that he’ll do the right thing out of the goodness of his heart, but perhaps he’ll do the right thing out of fear of losing.
In my experience most of the people calling him genocide Joe can’t vote in US elections.
But yes, their goal is to get Trump elected.
It’s not a nuanced position, there is genocide of the Palestinian people occurring in Gaza literally right now. They’re actually dying and the US props up the country doing it, it’s clear Biden could and can do much more to stop the genocide. So some people call him “Genocide Joe”, people are being murdered, I assume they think something so striking is fitting. Whole families have been wiped off the face of the earth, some people get radicalized by that I am sure.
Now people who do think he is “Genocide Joe” will not vote for the other guy https://web.archive.org/web/20240306112504/https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905 . Argument is bunk, hell the fascist guy said he’d support completing the genocide completely while Biden holds a line of “secretly I want it to stop” which is “vaguely” better. And if they don’t vote for either because of support for the genocide on both sides, they are not people who care about the country and definitely don’t have well constructed opinions on anything else. (e.g., couldn’t rely on them for a Dem vote if no genocide occurring)
So this argument is just wrong. The crap some Dems wish for, that people shouldn’t protest Biden’s policies at all or else all will fall is inherently flawed - the US democracy is built on free speech and advocating for change. And when a people are being genocided by a US proxy, many think it is worth it to rock the boat in a safe way.
However if people vote uncommitted in the primaries because they are convinced Biden is Genocide Joe then they aren’t going to want to vote for Biden in the general election.
If he changes policy, why not? People can make mistakes. Ideally, I’d rather not support someone who has such a past history and I’d be skeptical that the change is a long-term change rather than just trying to appeal to voters in the short-term, but given the other likely outcome, someone it certainly would be a lot better outcome.
Genocide Joe? The US isn’t committing genocide, it isn’t even a proxy war. It completely adds a level of responsibility on Biden that isn’t his to bare. I’m not saying he has none, but that’s farcical.
The US has an outsized influence on Israel. The US bankrolls Israel, and provides weapons. The US provides $4 billion annually for Israel to buy weapons, guaranteed cash for the military. The US is the main trading partner with Israel and provides loans with really low rates. US firms open factories in Israel (like Intel) via direct subsidies to boost the Israel economy. Edit: this was just ran today https://web.archive.org/web/20240000000000*/https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/israel-weapons-sales-loophole
The US is clearly in a proxy war with many factions in the Middle East via Israel, as the US props up and enables Israel. The US literally was in a proxy war with the Soviet Union when Israel and Egypt were duking it out. Israel being the US’s proxy in the Middle East did not end just because the Soviet Union ended.
The US (and Biden) has major responsibility, is directly linked, and could exercise a lot of the influence the US pays for to halt the genocide of the Palestinians.
Yeah, I know all that stuff. Ally ≠ genocide by America and half that shit you said isn’t even relevant. USSR proxy war? And? Israel was a weapons supplier and mule for the US’s. So was Egypt. What are you on about?
Still, some responsibility, yeah.
I laid out the evidence that the US is in a proxy war with Hamas via Israel (and the entire Gaza population because the country of Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people), as you said the US is not in a proxy war.
So I gave plenty of relevant info that the US heavily props up Israel, making them a proxy since they will do the US’ will as the US ensures Israel does not economically collapse.
Then I gave evidence that Israel was in an actual proxy war when the US had a near peer, the Soviet Union. The US and Soviet Union duked it out via their proxies, Israel and Egypt. The MiGs did so poorly that the Soviet Union actually sent their own pilots in since they assumed the Egyptians were awful https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Attrition but those MiGs were up against F-4 Phantoms and you can fathom who kept Israel well supplied with everything they needed during the various wars.
The US is egregiously responsible for the genocide since it provides at least half of the military budget of Israel right now, if not more, and Israel is literally a proxy of the US’ will in the Middle East and has been for decades.
Edit: the genocide is very bad right now and needs to stop. Hence people made a safe protest vote, because anything is better than nothing when already 30,000+ Palestinian civilians have been killed.
Aw sweet, republican astroturfing post!
You do not understand the US primary system.
People are driven by the genocide of the Palestinians to stop it. The title is jarring, divisive, and highly critical on purpose: 30,000+ Palestinian civilians are dead and counting. Biden has not done enough to end the genocide that the US enables, hence he is targeted by this me-me.
The uncommitted vote in the 2nd term incumbent US Democrat primary, which this me-me depicts, is a safe way to draw attention to the significant need for the US to exercise its power and end the genocide. Biden is not running against anyone with credible support, he will sweep the nomination guaranteed as he is a popular president.
There is no credible call to not vote for Biden in the general. If you see such a call, that is actually republican astroturfing or Russian bots at work. Anyone sane and rational is well aware the fascist republicans are worse, even if Biden does not act to end the genocide - as the fascists have already said they would “complete the mission”.
you don’t think calling the man desperately attempting to pull israel back Genocide Joe is gop astroturfing?
like you can assemble an entire argument about the primary process but ignore that aspect?
goddamn that’s a useful idiot
He has not been desperately trying to pull Israel back, and people with a modicum of critical thinking skills have properly identified that he has not and are urging him to do so. That is not astroturfing, that is a fact and that is why people are pushing for him to use his outsized influence to end the genocide. Not just talk and send more weapons to kill Palestinian civilians. You can see why people might call him that, they want the genocide to end now, before more Palestinians are killed.
You are the useful idiot. 30,000+ civilians have been murdered, it’s a crime against humanity and it must stop. Do not urge it on by being desperately uninformed.
I do not have the time to type new forms of the same info for everyone who wanders into 196 that are clearly ignorant of how the US primary system works, what the uncommitted vote symbolically means, and why people are so adamant for the end of the Palestinian genocide.
People calling this me-me tankie, anti-American, anti-democracy, so many things. This is just a me-me that riffs on the uncommitted vote movement and was made by someone who STRONGLY feels the genocide needs to end (because thousands and thousands of civilians have already been killed) and they feel so strongly they typed “Genocide Joe”.
What’s with all the tankies recently? If they wanted to change things for the better they would organize and vote for biden, even if he sucks. The organizing is the important part anyways, voting is just damage control.
EDIT: In case it was unclear, I do not mean organize to vote for biden.
EDIT: I am an idiot. This is a primary. Don’t vote for biden if there is a better candidate.
People are organizing the uncommitted campaign to get Biden to stop giving billions to support an active genocide
I think most people here are all for that, but if Trump is president, it’s going to get so much worse.
Voting in a two party system is a raw deal, but it’s the only deal we have.
You do not understand the US primary system, in it only the Democrats are running against each other. Biden is popular and will win, the uncommitted vote is to show how many people care deeply about ending the genocide of the Palestinians. It is safe because there are no fascists as front runners in the US democrat primary.
Due to the two party system/first past the post the US primary is the only safe place to show discontent via vote on a national level. (And only during a 2nd term year)
The genocide of the Palestinians is a very, very horrendous action that is still taking place as I type. This has motivated a significant chunk of people to protest vote, in a way that does not enable fascists.
I think most people here are all for that
Judging by the number of memes by both groups, I don’t think Lemmy has reached any consensus. A lot of the anti-Biden stuff seems bot-like or a shill network but that might just be reflective of the intelligence of the average Trump enthusiast, who do exist here.
?? Unionize what ?? and this is actually a vote against fascism. Israel’s Zionist gov is very fascist and is committing active genocide against a people they view as 2nd class. This vote is getting the US government to use its outsized influence on Israel to end the Palestinian genocide.
The US primary election during an incumbent’s 2nd term reelection is the only place to safely vote like this on a national level in the US’s two party/first past the pole system. The incumbent is guaranteed to sweep, so people who care to enact a much needed end to genocide can vote to show their support for ending Palestinians being murdered.
(In the US, the term unionize is tied to worker groups acting as a collective bargaining unit and not tied to political movements)
where are you from? who taught you what these words mean? tankie? unionize? you know those words have specific applications which don’t match the context in which you are using them? are you aware of how primaries work in US elections?
/genuinely asking because your behavior is very confusing.
“Tankie” is when you don’t vote for a candidate who supports genocide.
The state of the online “tankie” discourse has never been worse.
They has a hammer and sickle in their username, a symbol most socialists have abandoned because of tankies.
socialists have not abandoned the most universally recognized leftist symbol lmao
Voting for president is damage control.
Real action is local. And voting local is far more influential in the long run.
Yeah? So do I. But how do none of you understand game theory? You are not sending a message by not voting for biden.
You do not understand the US primary system, in it only the Democrats are running against each other. Biden is popular and will win, the uncommitted vote is to show how many people care deeply about ending the genocide of the Palestinians. It is safe because there are no fascists as front runners in the US democrat primary.
Due to the two party system/first past the post the US primary is the only safe place to show discontent via vote on a national level. (And only during a 2nd term year)
The genocide of the Palestinians is a very, very horrendous action that is still taking place as I type. This has motivated a significant chunk of people to protest vote, in a way that does not enable fascists
