No different than any other project the PM/PO team cooks up. Tons of work for no user base.
Because the world is seen and directed by layers upon layers of abstractions that get divorced from reality but do give monetary benefits when manipulated in some way.
until they lose a multi billion dollar mission because of conversion errors
It’s pretty much a requirement now to use the metric system for everything.
Based on a completely superficial review there are three almost guaranteed ways to become unhinged; studying infinities, refactoring legacy code, and working with timezones.
I think it’s time for a refactor of my legacy code that deals with infinite timezones. :/
That’s a good idea! Instead of discrete timezones, let’s have continuous timezones!
I had to refactor legacy date/time code (including timezone code) at work. D:
We’ve gone too far. Everyone just switch to UTC please. Yes, it means some will go to bed at 2pm and get up at 10pm, so what.
go to bed at 2pm and get up at 10pm
While we are making reasonable demands, stop using 12 hour time. Sincerely, everyone else.
And please, get all countries to actually start properly accepting ISO 8601 format for dates as a mandatory universal standard…
Obligatory reference: https://xkcd.com/1179/
Obviously it would require some getting used to, but already people can’t comprehend time zones, so that won’t change. My grandma called in the middle of the night all throughout our three year stay in Australia.
It’s gonna get much worse when you start to try mapping days of the week onto the new times. Are days gonna be the same everywhere as well, to stay from 0 to 24? If so, have fun saying things like “Let’s find a time on Wednesday/Thursday”. People likely couldn’t be bothered and would probably just use the day that their normal wake-up time falls on to mean the full solar day instead. At which point you could also just say okay, weekdays are still following local solar days. But now what weekday is it halfway around the world? Now you need to look up their solar day.
All this to say - abolishing time zones will introduce the reverse problem for every problem that it seemingly solves. You can’t change the fact that our planet rotates and people in different locations will follow different schedules. Turning the lookup-table upside down is just a cosmetic change that doesn’t remove the situation that’s causing the confusion. I’d rather just stick with the set of problems that we’re already used to dealing with.
People comprehend days, they comprehend that their day starts at 00:00 and ends at 23:59. Calling to the other side of the world isn’t something most people.do on a daily basis
Maybe this freak should just text uncle steve whatever he wanted, or a “call me when it’s convinient” message, and then steve will probably see the notification at some point in his morning routine before too long. If this guy really needed to call steve anyways, for whatever reason, he shouldn’t care about time zones, because it’s an emergency.
If you were commonly calling whatever place you were calling, you’d probably be able to intuit what time they woke up anyways, so it’s all moot.
I dunno. I think it’s pretty easy to make a big deal out of time zones and calendar measurements and whatever but I don’t think it really, actually matters that much, because the main thing they facilitate is communication. Time zones and timelines should be engineered more around the human condition, I think, than around anything else.
But then, I think, to construct anything around the human condition is kind of paradoxical. If you create a schedule, then you have created a schedule. I.e. if you construct time, then you imply the existence of something that needs to be measured. That implies deadlines.
Frankly, that’s too much pressure for me, so I’m going to take the more controversial stance here: Abolish time. No more time, no more numbers measuring when I should do what. You’re either gonna tell me whether or not to do something now, or to do it later. The people gotta learn that time is more subjective and contingent, and they gotta start showing up to their work shifts whenever they want to make money, instead of just showing up at a given time when the fuckin steam whistle goes off like it’s the 1800s.
Lol.
None of the negatives that this troll article name are actual negatives that normal humans have.
Especially the argument for timezones is “I can just Google what time it is in <timezone>”…
You can always Google “what time is it at <location>”
Those that propose moving to UTC should take responsibility and take the +12h offset. Why should we let the brits enjoy +0 offset while the rest of the world got the short end of the stick (especially those living in the pacific)?
If it makes a dev’s life easier there’s no reason not to upend half the planet.
In Europe we’ve been talking about ending DST for years now and it hinges on countries deciding which zone they want to adopt permanently. Why can’t they decide? Because the notion of getting up at six and having lunch at 12 is stronger than the cosmic fact of the sun being in the middle of the sky. We just need to decide how we want daylight to fit into that grind.
I say fuck that. If we can’t decide, don’t. Since we’re changing everything anyway, going to UTC will force everyone to think how THEY want to live their lives. When to open stores, whether to move opening hours in winter or summer, when to go to work (both early birds and night owls are great).
Plus in today’s globalized world, 14:00 will be 14:00 everywhere. You decide for yourself if you’re working then or not if somebody sends a meeting request halfway across the world.
Why switch? It’s not too complicated a concept for the average person to understand and deal with. In fact, it’s intuitive. Sure in software the logic has a few nuances that are a bit complex when needing to deal with local time and timezones, but that’s why we make the computers do the tricky work.
required reading: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5wpm-gesOY
That’s all good info and explains some of the problems that could be resolved for us programmers if we were on UTC, but for the most part these are programmer problems and the computer handles it for everyone else. Additionally, it makes a few issues clear that won’t be resolved with a UTC switch.
First, as mentioned countries all over the world decide for themselves what timezone they’re going to follow. Even if countries were to switch to UTC, we know they all won’t do it nor at the same time, so programmers will have to deal with that added complexity too having some on UTC, some off, some switching on this date or that… if the movement got serious we’d have another Y2K frenzy, but not one that ended on a specific date… it’d linger for years as various countries came on-board. Additionally, we’d still have to deal with all the historical calendar, timezone and DST switches he mentioned. Those wouldn’t go away… in fact we’d be introducing a bunch of new ones.
Fact is timezones are understandable and work pretty good for normal people and their day-to-day tasks. Normal people aren’t going to want to understand UTC and then have to translate their normal day times to and from others around the world. No matter where you are I understand what you mean when you say your morning started at 6am or you eat at noon or you go to bed at 11pm or 23:00 for that matter. With UTC I don’t know what 23:00 means in Australia, Germany or India relative to your day… not only programmers but even normal people would have to know how to translate that to a time they can relate too, so you’d have to know timezones anyway. So while I’d know 23:00 was exactly the same point in time for each of us, I wouldn’t know how it relates to your day the way it relates to mine… is it morning, night, mid-day? It would actually make today’s programmers problems - which isn’t too common for most of us - a problem for everyone.
Because it makes getting an intuitive sense of what solar time it is somewhere harder.
Can I call my grandma in a different country? Hmm what time is average midnight there. Okay 8 (so far, same thing as looking up a timezone), and it’s 18:00 now, so 10 hours after midnight, which is like my 23:00. Needlessly complicated with extra steps for the average person.
Sure, you can say, I’ll call you X and that will mean the same thing everywhere, but does not have any information about solar time. And these days, it’s automatically converted if you use a calendar (which you should). This is the point of programming, to make the USERS life easier, not the dev. The end is more important than the means, I think we can agree.
Or: what time is it where my grandma is? Okay, cool, I have a sense of what that is immediately after knowing the answer.
There are reasons we do things this way. Working roughly to solar times has more benefits than being able to say a time and it mean the same moment everywhere.
I say we leave things the way they are, works okay.
Like when i find a recipe that measures volume in Cups, weight in Stones and temperature i Fucks?
Which I think we can all agree is more work than what we currently need to.
It’s not just one addition, it’s 2 operations following knowing what time midnight is to understand what the solar time it is: what time is it now, minus what time is their midnight, and then you have to add that back to what your midnight is to get a sense of the time. Or you just start thinking in solar time WHICH IS WHAT WE ALREADY DO.
That’s 2 calculations. Currently we do 0.
Innately knowing what time means in films, talking to people over the phone, going to a new country. It would be a huge pain in the arse.
"They met up at 13:00“ great. So where are they in this film? Forcing exposition where currently you might let it be vague.
People who advocate for one timezone simply haven’t thought it through.
I’m just saying, but we did.
Pretty much every electronic thing you own that resembles a computer (phones, tablets, laptops, desktops, even your damned TV) uses UTC. Every. Single. One. Translates that time to “local” whenever it needs to.
So when your TV goes from 9:32 to 9:33, is just showing the converted time from UTC each time.
Almost every device on the planet is keeping time in UTC.
Just because you don’t see UTC time on your device, doesn’t mean that’s not what’s happening. I had an issue where I needed to get into my computer’s bios for something, as soon as the BIOS loaded and showed the time, it was “wrong” because it was in UTC. I’m sure plenty of newer BIOS dialogs are configured to account for timezones now, so yeah. I might be unique in this. It’s still there.
Almost all computers count time as seconds from the epoch (midnight 1/1/1970). That then gets converted into a readable time, which may go through UTC to be converted first, but that’s not how it’s storing it.
You’re referring to UNIX time. And you’re correct.
It’s a count of how many seconds from midnight, January first, 1970, UTC.
Local computers update that time, still in UTC, from time servers, usually over NTP, then translate that time reading from UNIX time in UTC, to a human readable format in the local time zone.
All computers are still keeping track of time from Epoch in UTC.
Unix time is far less universal in computing than you might hope. A few exceptions I’m aware of:
- Most real-time clock hardware stores datetime as separate binary-coded decimal fields representing months, days, hours, minutes, and seconds as one byte each, and often the year too (resulting in a year 2100 limit).
- Python’s datetime, WIN32’s SYSTEMTIME, Java’s LocalDateTime, and MySQL’s DATETIME similarly have separate attributes for year, month, day, etc.
- NTFS stores a 64-bit number representing time elapsed since the year 1601 in 100-nanosecond resolution for things like file creation time.
- NTP uses an epoch of midnight 1900-01-01 with unsigned seconds elapsed and an unusual base-2 fractional part
- GPS uses an epoch of midnight 1980-01-06 with a week number and time within the week as separate values.
Converting between time formats is a common source of bugs and each one will overflow in different ways. A time value might overflow in the year 2036, 2038, 2070, 2100, 2156, or 9999.
Also, Unix time is often managed with a separate nanoseconds component for increased resolution. Like in C struct timespec, modern *nix filesystems like ext4/xfs/btrfs/zfs, etc.
as soon as the BIOS loaded and showed the time, it was “wrong” because it was in UTC
Because you don’t use Windows. Windows by default stores local time, not UTC, to the RTC. This behavior can be overriden with a registry tweak. Some Linux distro installer disks (at least Ubuntu and Fedora, maybe others) will try to detect if your system has an existing Windows install and mimicks this behavior if one exists (equivalent to timedatectl set-local-rtc 1) and otherwise defaults to storing UTC, which is the more sane choice.
Storing localtime on a computer that has more than one bootable OS becomes a particularly noticable problem in regions that observe DST, because each OS will try to change the RTC by one hour on its first boot after the time change.
That’s a nice theory, it would be a shame if I was only running Windows 10 on my desktop.
Spoiler: I am. No Linux or any other os or bootloader in sight.
But would the moon work on a 24 hour system at all?
I can’t believe I just typed that as a serious comment
Didn’t Bajor have a 28 hour day? I’m now voting for Universal Bajoran Time
If you’re setting moon time to the day/night cycle of the moon, yeah, it would actually have a much longer day, from what I understand.
I might be wrong, but to my best understanding, the moon is tidally locked to the earth, meaning the same side of the moon is always facing the surface of our planet. Which means the rotation of the moon, and the length of a day on the moon would be tied to how fast it orbits the earth.
You can tell the duration of an orbit by simply following the moon cycle (“new” moon (midnight) through “full” moon (noon) and back to a “new” moon. Based on this, unless I’ve made a serious error in my logic, a moon day would be something like 20-30 earth days.
If I Google it, the moon orbits earth approximately every 27.3 days. Which is about 665h 12m… Give or take a few hours.
Our entire concept of time, days, months, and years, breaks on the moon. On earth, an hour is 1/24th of a rotation of the planet. A day is one full day/night cycle, a year is one orbit around the sun.
When you transpose this principle to the moon, am hour is 1/24th of a rotation of the moon, which happens to be 1/24th of a year, which is one orbital rotation around the earth. So one day = one year on the moon.
So how do we measure time on the moon in a way that isn’t completely insane? The only logical thing I can think of is to fundamentally lock the time zone of the moon to the earth. That the date, and maybe even the time, isn’t based on the moon, but rather transposed from some definition of the same on earth.
This also leads me into a rant/discussion about time in SciFi. Once you leave the orbit and reference point of Earth, what is a day? An hour? A year? You have no point of reference to base such notions of time. Why is there a “night shift” in programs like Star Trek? Why is there really only one captain? Why does everything on these shows seem to occur during their idea of “daytime”?
Then there negotiating with some alien race and say they’ll reconvene tomorrow about something… Tomorrow, based on what? You’re in space. It makes sense if they’re in orbit of a planet, but then you get to see standoffs in the middle of fucking nothing, and they’re like “you have 24 hours to decide”. Okay. 24 hours based on what exactly?
I appreciated MiB’s take on this in the film. They defined not only how much time they had to return the galaxy, but in what format the time was being counted in. Which they could calculate and adjust to earth time.
This all sets aside relativity, since when you’re moving near, at, or beyond the speed of light, you experience time differently (see: interstellar), also gravity can affect this, and other factors. But somehow, they just side-shuffle from the whole time thing and just focus on the drama of it all. Viewers are too enthralled with the spectacle, not realizing that these Romans or boleans, or Klingons, or cardassians, or whatever, probably have a completely different idea of how much time their version of “one hour” or “one day” is.
It’s fascinating and frustrating.
I love it and hate it all at the same time.
Time sucks. It’s never correct, often ignored, and bluntly, a strange concept that isn’t, IMO, well defined. We have the idea pretty well set up here on earth, based entirely on things happening on and to this planet, but if you take that reference point away, everything collapses.
Honestly quote irrelevant. It’s hidden away. It’s not shown to us. It could use literally any frame of reference, like farts since the beginning of times, if it’s converted for you, then it’s not.
That’s it, I’m only using epoch from now on, that’s enough of your time zone shenanigans
Except the length of a second is different on the moon because of relativity. So even utc is wrong.
UTC doesn’t become wrong, you can either just accept a different pace of the clock, i.e. earth ppl will be ever so late to a meeting or it’s just a different kind of timezone conversion. Better would be to have a single time based on the reference frame of the center of the galaxy and everyone keep there time relative to that.
just use a time based on light?, like meter is based on the speed fo light in the vaccum, or use atomic based times?, like how long take for the hydrogen atom todo something bla bla bla
No the second is still 9192631770 hyperfine transitions of Cs-133 on the moon and that’s the same length of time at least unless you want to severely annoy physicists by implying that the laws of nature aren’t constant throughout the universe. It’s just that from our perspective it looks like time is flowing differently there.
You are correct that if you are on thee moon and have a cs-133 atom with you is second will take that many transitions. And if you do the same thing on Earth, a second will take the same number of transitions.
But things get weird when you are on earth and observe a cs-133 atom that is on the moon. Because you are in different reference frames, you are traveling at different speeds and are in different gravity wells time is moving at different rates. This means that a cs atom locally will transition a different number of times in a second from your point of view on Earth vs one you are observing on the moon.
And it would all be reversed if you were on the Moon observing a clock back on the Earth.
They already have to account for this with GPS satellites. They all have atomic clocks on them but they don’t run at the same speed as clocks that are on the ground. The satellites are moving at a great speed and are further from the center of the earth than us, so the software that calculates the distance from your phone to the satellite have to use Einstein’s equations to account for the change in the rate of time.
Relativity is weird.
So, in this case a moon timezone, and more generally a “space timekeeping framework” makes sense because time actually moves at a different speed on the moon, so epoch times wouldn’t actually stay in sync.
If the goal of “time” is to make it easier to reason about simultaneous things, then space makes that way more complicated.
It’s just tricky to condense that into a headline that conveys the point.
The concept of “simultaneous” breaks down over relativistic distances too so that’s equally fucked
I suspect that won’t help. The reason the Moon needs a time zone is because of gravitational time dilation, time literally runs slower down here on Earth’s surface relative to the Moon’s surface. A computer on the Moon gains an extra 58.7 microseconds each Earth day, so if you’re programming something that’ll be running on Lunar time you’ll need to account for that.
The point of the lunar time zone is not to have a specific UTC offset like other timezones. The moon would have its own set of atomic clocks, and time could be coordinated with earth based on ratio instead of offset.
They’re not going to be maintaining literal atomic clocks on the Moon for this. They’ll apply a mathematical adjustment to UTC based on what the physics calculations say is happening. The details of that adjustment are what NASA has yet to develop. It could involve subtracting a “leap second” from lunar time at intervals, leap seconds are already used for keeping UTC in sync with the solar time so it’s an established process. Or maybe they’ll just let Lunar time continue drifting relative to Earth, in which case there’ll be a different “epoch” on each.
All we need is a single universal Space-Time map that will tell the time (in any and all formats) at any point in space, taking into consideration, all the events caused by all the forces that cause existence, from the start of this universe. Then it can take the place of both, maps and clocks.
Just make sure it is memory safe. Oh and properly escape all queries. And also …
That should last us until we start exploring the space outside the universe.
Lightcones?
My favorite thing here is pointing out that Heisenberg uncertainty should influence gravitational waves and definitely influences light cones
