Important clarification/FAQ
I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!
I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)
Very good comments that express key points:
- Detailed summary of the situation if you’re wondering what’s going on
- The rhetorical value of the bear hypothetical and what this means for you
- One example of why the long-term rhetorical value of the hypothetical is poor, in the context of intersectionality
- What does disenfranchisement mean in this context?
- The importance of not asking women to tone down their expressions of fear and frustration
- “But why can’t they just say it nicely?”
- The importance of participation in kindness toward young men, specifically outside the context of people speaking their experiences
Edit: This post has now been removed and restored twice. I want to encourage you all:
Be decent to one another
I think this post is a valuable thing given the current state of the Fediverse, please don’t fuck it up for us by being toxic in the comments.
there is only one truth, and it is that there is no gender war, only misdirection from class warfare that has monetized and monopolized even our interpersonal, romantic, and sexual connection.
when people don’t have problems, you can’t sell them solutions.
Even if we take gender-based issues as very real (which is often not quite true since we target a demographic of literally half the planet, which is never representative), they come second to the class warfare.
A poor male worker holds way less power than a rich businesswoman.
epic intersectionality moment
The shackles of sexism, racism, and homophobia do not simply fall off when you accept class consciousness. These are still fights for awareness which must continue to be fought. Otherwise, we risk allowing toxic mentalities into our midst, which will only serve to alienate and expel our minority brethren.
The cages built by the state which cordon us off from one another exist in the mind, but they are very real in impact. We must fight by destroying the cages in each of our thoughts, and pass our knowledge to others so they can do the same. That is the only means to stand as one.
Let’s also not forget that there are very real shackles placed on many groups - many real cages - which we must work to destroy as well.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains.
Noticing your chains and beginning to rattle them, and encouraging your peers to do the same, is the first step to releasing yourself from them, but it is not the only step.
I don’t think this is a good example of class struggle, at least not directly. The bear meme is valid in as much as it describes one woman’s feelings, but the truth is that in 85-90% of cases, the woman knows her attacker1. The random man is simply not the issue.
The issue is power disparity. Teacher vs student, employer vs worker, landlord vs tenant. It’s difficult to reduce the power difference due to physical strength, but the others are all changeable. More (meaningful) oversight for police, better tenancy boards, and stronger unions are all examples of structures that might make it harder to victimize women.
Class struggle explains economic, and maybe political power, but those are not the only types of power in play.
And if I’m wrong? Then we’ve made a better society for nothing.
1 https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/most-victims-know-their-attacker
i fundamentally agree with you. i think it depends on how loosely you define ‘direct’. class struggle has its fingers in many pies including
- marketing saturation / materialism
- mental health availability
- quality of education
- overall day-to-day stress levels
all of which are at odds with encouraging a more empathetic, happy, and healthy population of men. people who are angry and fearful and deprived are easier to control and sell products to than people who are kind and understanding and satisfied. a higher quality of life breeds a higher quality of people and interpersonal interactions.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail.
I’ve got a guillotine in the garage I can break out, too, but I might need you guys to help me move it.
Here’s Orwell in “Homage to Catalonia”:
“There were perhaps a thousand men at the barracks, and a score or so of women, apart from the militiamen’s wives who did the cooking. There were still women serving in the militias, though not very many. In the early battles they had fought side by side with the men as a matter of course. It is a thing that seems natural in time of revolution. Ideas were changing ready, however. The militiamen had to be kept out of the riding-school while the women were drilling there because they laughed at the women and put them off. A few months earlier no one would have seen anything comic in a woman handling a gun.”
This was in an overwhelmingly leftist camp. Orwell sees glimpses of an anarchist collective based on mutual aid popping up. Yet, sexisim clearly persisted after a period where it had been pushed aside.
These issues don’t go away just because people become class conscious.
Those young men should also choose the bear. If we explained that to them, and why, maybe the next generation wouldn’t need to.
Honestly I think if you gave them the same choice, they’d pick bear too. Bear or a man who has on average 75% more muscle mass and 90% more strength than you. He is also 93% likely to be gay. Now you might be in the forest with your nice and normal gay neighbor and have a totally lovely time! Or you might get one of those gay priests who just want to rape you repeatedly. Which do you pick? Man or bear?
That’s a lot closer to the choice women are making.
Source on average difference of male to female strength https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205132404.htm
I mean, I’m a man getting to the point where I’m entering the “No longer young” decade, but I’d take the bear. People are less predictable than bears. I don’t want to be isolated from civilization with ANY stranger.
It’s exactly this. A bear is a bear. Known quantity. Likely to leave you alone, and you’re in his space. A man? Possibly fine. Possibly gonna do some bad stuff. Why is he even there? Who knows!
People are really bad at risk calculations. Bears just aren’t that risky by comparison.
https://www.nps.gov/subjects/bears/safety.htm
Somebody on youtube really needs to do a skit where a woman treats a random dude in the woods the same way they would a real bear encounter.
Because…men…make up ~80% of all murder victims, in addition to 90% of the perpetrators? According to the UN’s 2019 homicide study?
That’s why men fall into frothing inceldom and whatever Andrew Tate is doing? Because they share statistically just as much risk regarding other men as women face from men, just for a predominantly different crime?
Because that’s why they need to be choosing the bear, and that just doesn’t sound right…
You’re using the bear analogy wrong. If the bear analogy was about statistics, they’d choose the human because statistically speaking, many, many more people are helpful than harmful. Especially compared to a dangerous wild animal.
People pick the bear because they themselves have been hurt too many times or have heard of people being hurt too many times. There is a perception that the bear is safer.
That can go both ways. And often people choosing the bear can be in a vulnerable state, which the likes of Andrew Tate preys on.
How are they choosing the bear? Both of those are actively hostile towards women, they don’t just “go their own way” to chill with the bear
Not really. It’s saying to soften the language. I disagree. I say explain the language and why that level of anger is justified. The boys will quickly realize and be told that it’s not about them. They’ll likely also be just as mad at the s*** that goes on.
Kids are smart. If you tell them that women would pick a bear because a small percentage of men rape a large percentage of women, they’ll get that.
Women: “men are horrible rapists”
Men who are not rapists: “hey that’s pretty insulting”
Women: “oh not you, you’re one of the good ones”
Men who are not rapists: “oh well in that case please proceed with your sexism”
??
This whole thing is completely blown out of proportion. The fact that young disenfranchised men are getting upset that women they don’t know are choosing a bear over them says that they are taking it personally when it’s not.
If you’re a young man, and the people around you have decided they would rather choose the bear over you, that’s a sign that you need to sit down and take a hard look at yourself about why they would do that. What have you done that would make them decide that. And if you extend that feeling to random women that you don’t know, then you need to sit down and take a hard look at yourself why you feel that way. You don’t know the lived experience of random women. You don’t know why they would choose certain death over you. Taking it personally only shows your immaturity. You can’t control how other people feel. You can only control yourself. If you want to understand why women around you would choose the bear, maybe try asking them nicely and actually listen. Empathy works both ways. Showing some will encourage people to reciprocate.
“Just remember, men: under no circumstances are women ever wrong. Every problem is caused by you and must be fixed by you.”
Way to purposely misinterpret what I said.
How are women “wrong” about feeling uncomfortable around unknown men? How are women asking you to fix that problem? None of what you just said is actually happening. Stop creating a fantasy where you’re perfect and it’s everyone else who has a problem.
I don’t really understand the point you’re trying to make, would you mind expanding on it?
That would be cool and all if women reciprocated and listened to men for once.
One of the ways in which some men radicalize is through support towards women that is not appreciated nor reciprocated. Something like “duh, if you didn’t support us we’d call you the problem”.
Of course this gets personal. If women expect men to listen, could they please listen for once? I’m sure they’d get a lot of insights behind a lot of male behaviors, and particularly why we are upset and why some men turn aggressive and hostile and follow rapists and douchebags.
Want insights on abusive behaviors and how to prevent them? The answers are there. Heck, threads under this post contain the true answers. Listen.
You are not owed reciprocation. You are not owed appreciation. No one is asking you to listen to them. You’ve taken it upon yourself to respond to a woman making a general statement that’s not directed at you. You made that choice.
It’s not the responsibility of women to ensure that you do not become radicalized. You have to take ownership of your own life and the choices that you make. That includes the choice to become aggressive, or hostile, or to become a rapist. Women don’t make you do those things. You decide to do those things, no matter how you try to justify it. The choice is yours alone.
And women are not owed being listened to and cared for, exactly.
We do it not because we owe something to each other, but because we’re empathetic human beings able to listen and care for the discourse that is not about us. But we too have something to say, and it is directly relevant to the substance of the conversation.
And it gets more and more frustrating to see many women venting their anger without actually trying to listen up and see the other side of their story, gaining insights that are useful in combating the very issue they complain about. The solutions are there. It’s just that no one actually cares for them.
Nothing good comes from a discourse when one relevant side is shushed every time they speak up. And this is the case.
Now, what is more important to you - venting anger and shifting blame? Or listening in search of insights?
It’s not certain death. Bears are predictable, you can easily scare a bear away or play dead. Random men are unpredictable. As a man, I would much rather ruin into a beat than some sketchy dude who wants to rob me or wear my skin as a coat.
But that’s just it. It’s not about the bear. It was never about the bear. It’s about women not trusting unknown men, and the men who get offended by that. Anyone that insists on predicting what the bear would do, or wants to discuss statistics of bear attacks, is missing the point. It’s distracting away from the actual conversation.
Women have the right to feel uncomfortable around unknown men. Men have the right to feel hurt by that sentiment. But it’s not the responsibility of women to coddle the men and make them feel better. The men need to understand that they can only control themselves. Part of controlling themselves is to empathize with women and try to understand why they would choose the bear. Not get upset that a random woman doesn’t want to be alone with them. Not proclaim they’d also choose the bear because they don’t want to be alone with some sketchy man. Not convince them that the bear is statistically more dangerous. Just simply listen and try to understand. That’s all. When you learn to control yourself and empathize, you’ll find others that will do the same. And then maybe some of those women will choose you over the bear…
Women have the right to feel uncomfortable around unknown men.
I guess
Men have the right to feel hurt by that sentiment.
Fair enough.
But it’s not the responsibility of women to coddle the men and make them feel better.
Okay, I’m following
The men need to understand that they can only control themselves. Part of controlling themselves is to empathize with women and try to understand why they would choose the bear.
Whoa whoa wait, so it is the responsibility of men to coddle the women and make them feel better?
Choosing the bear is stupid and irrational. But isn’t it on women to stop being irrational, rather than on men to make them feel comfortable enough to make the rational choice?
Or, alternatively, if it’s on men to make women feel comfortable, then isn’t it women’s responsibility to not cause men to feel hurt?
You can’t have it both ways. Either each gender has a right to be irrational and needs to figure their own shit out, or each gender has a responsibility to help the other feel better about gender relations. What you wrote is “men have a problem? Men need to fix it. Women have a problem? Men also need to fix it.”
Ah! Doublethink!
/s
OK, seriously, I thought I’ve spent enough free time on Lemmy telling you to watch Barbie here for some of you here to, you know, actually watch Barbie.
So let me be clear: it is ultimately the Barbies’ complete disregard for the Kens’ feelings that led to the Kens being poisoned by the idea of the Patriarchy and all the subsequent mess in Barbieland, so way ahead of you on 2, to reiterate, what the Kens did was wrong, but you have got to take a nuanced approach to these things.
Also, on 1, all I said was that unlike the meme I feel that bears are terrifying, and then some weirdo came out of the woodwork and got really angry and start talking over me and calling me a dumbass and I was making it all about me somehow. The irony was so palpable I was at a loss for words.
