122 points

Heaven forbid we try running charismatic candidates like Obama and Bill…

Like, it’s insane to me that everyone seems to be aware of what wins elections, but the people running the Dem party just keep insisting we need to shut up and vote for someone very few people actually want.

Like, we can’t do this without the voters, they’re the irreplaceable part.

We can get different people to run the party, or just coalesce around another.

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46 points

Democrats need to fall in love. Republicans just need to fall in line.

It’s like you read the meme and went yep, totally their fault. I’m ok with my life gets shittier until I fall in love with a politician. It’s not my fault. I am owed this.

Is there a term for the political version of an incel?

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50 points

Yes. It’s called a political agitator.

This user canvases lemmy threads with anti Biden and anti Dem strawman arguments completely out of context of the thread. Every thread calling out Republicans for bullshit, this user is there never acknowledging how terrible the GOP is, and going straight into anti dem whataboutism.

Just look at the sheer number of comments this user posts daily. And search the mod logs for deleted comments on this user.

If they’re not being paid to disenfranchise progressive voters into abstaining from this election, they should look for a sponsor because they’re working for free.

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14 points

100%. You hardly ever see these people in any posts critical of Trump, though the few that you do see, just turn it around on Biden.

They’re clearly here to disrupt the election.

Just ask them who they’d put in Biden’s stead that has a remote chance to win the election. I do this all the time. So far- NONE have provided a viable name. Not one. Just backtracking, ad hominem, and doublespeak nonsense.

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4 points

"Everyone I disagree with is an agitator, now shut the fuck up about candidates earning their votes and do as you’re told because ONLY WE can save the country from fascist policies (even though Biden is doing half of it himself!)

No theres nothing fascist about that attitude or our incessant need to spread misinformation about anyone who thinks Biden sucks, SHUT UP AND FALL IN LINE OR ELSE!"

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Like. lets talk about what happened.

it’s reasonable to claim that Gore actually won in 2000. There were sixty one thousand votes that had not been machine-counted because of rampant, clearly partisan, bullshit reasons (among them “hanging chad”,). the Florida Supreme Court ordered a manual count of those ballots with SCOTUS, lead by Scalia, decided to stay because the recount would give Bush a veneer of “illegitimacy”. (gee. wonder why, ya fucking partisan hack.) To be perfectly clear, Gore lost Florida (and the electoral college) by 570 votes. The decision in Bush V. Gore to stay the manual recount basically handed Bush the win. (and, I might add, cast doubt on the legitimacy of bush’s win. it was handed by a court that had no business ordering that stay. But did anyway, because they’re partisan hacks. I’m not angry, honest.)

Kerry flip-flopped more than a fish out of water, making it hard for independents and centrists to know what his positions actually were. 2 years prior to the election he was, for example, staunchly against gay marriage (and lets be honest, the US was very hostile to gay marriage then. There’s been a massive sea change in that, but it hadn’t happened yet.), but in 2004 signed a letter urging Massachusetts to not outlaw gay marriage. Further, he had the personality of a cold fish. and his running mate was an empty suit with nothing to back it up- who couldn’t even deliver his home State of North Carolina… In short, you had a couple warm bodies running. At the time, Bush was still riding high off 9/11 and the Iraq war and americans were still angry at that; the war wasn’t unpopular yet. Katrina hadn’t happened yet, and Bush was still reasonably popular. So, of fucking course Kerry lost.

Hillary. Where do we begin? her emails? lets start there.

Sure, “HeR EmAiLs” and “LoCk HeR uP” is an idiotic rallying cry of MAGA morons everywhere. But, even so, she conducted official Sec of State business on a personal email routinely. It’s such a great rallying cry because it actually has some teeth. it should be scandalous. Even if she was perfectly not-at-all-corrupt, it looks that way. I- and most everyone else- would be legitimately fired for conducting that level of business off a personal email. it should be 100% unacceptable. Not saying she should have been locked up or grilled the way she was. But seriously. It looked bad. and it played in the news.

Then we got Benghazi. an American ambassador died in a terrorist attack. There’s some things that hindsight says they could have done differently. Republicans latched onto it for political theater, with 10 different investigations and multiple sessions of grilling Clinton, who even then was the presumptive nominee to replace Obama. there was some funding that her office denied, she might not even have been aware that “she” denied it. Hindsight’s a bitch. Anyhow… the republican shenanigans played well in the media.

Oh. “Super Criminals”. Hillary was very unpopular with minority voters- particularly Black and Latinos. sound clips calling for law-and-order tough-on-crime calling black people “super criminals” didn’t help. there was a lot there, especially with her attitude, but in the end they simply didn’t show up for her. Even if you look at women voters, she under-performed compared to Obamma. (i mean, he looks mighty fine in a tan suit… sorry, sorry. couldn’t resist.) Like, how unpopular do you have to be as a woman, to lose women voters from Obama’s election, when you’re running against Donald- “grab them by the pussy”, “When you’re that rich they let you do it”, “Octopus-Arms” -Trump.

Lets also talk about how she boosted trump specifically because he was “a clown” or whatever. She gave us trump and then proceededly arrogantly not campaign in key states.

oh, and there’s more that I just don’t have time to get into… but we got Whitewater, Travelgate, filegate; and shit rolls down hill so lets toss in Paula Jones and Monika Lewinsky scandals. Like there’s a lot of smoke there, and there might be a couple fires, or maybe they’re just really not that corrupt as people and it’s all a big missunderstanding. but again, that plays in the media, and it looks bad. Hilary was the definition of The Establishment™️ running against an anti-establismhent candidate. Of fucking course she’s gonna lose, and she really didn’t help matters by fucking around with not campaigning in key swing states because, “naw, it’s fucking trump”.

Yup. so aside from Gore, there’s really rather good reasons to have not liked them, and the DNC idiots thought they new better and ran them anyhow… and we got fucked because of it. blaming voters for your own stupid blunders seems to be a DNC favorite. And they’re doing it again.

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12 points

You missed basket of deplorables which is likely the exact moment she really lost.

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13 points

Pokemon Go to the polls. That campaign had a death by 1000 paper cuts. Yet she still won the popular vote.

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You’re right.

There’s not nearly as much as Trump but it’s still a lot, grrr

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3 points
*

I’m no Hillary fan, but I thought the consensus was she lost because of Comey’s bullshit October surprise.

Her Basket of Deplorables remark is actually the moment she MOST energized her base and grassroots coalition. That was a blip of authenticity I and many others appreciated.

You know, the people who actually go out and do the door-knocking, phone-banking, fundraising, and pushing back against Uncle Bob and their parents while dragging their friend to the poll out of voter-enthusiasm.

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-3 points

And she was fucking right, like she was about everything, and I suspect that deep down you people know it, and are ashamed, and that’s why you lash out at her.

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24 points
*

It’s not just the president, you need to vote for house of reps and Senate. Obama only had control for 2/8 years. In that time he got the ACA. The remaining 6 years of Obama the GOP were more than happy to block everything. They even shut down the government. If you need charisma to feed your emotions every 4 years, yeesh.

*Oh I caught on, it’s the thiny veiled Biden bad, hinting he has no charisma and nobody wants to vote for him. “They just have to run someone else nudge nudge. Someone else to run the party wink wink.” Nuts to that, Biden is doing great.

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11 points

I get people want to fall in line at this point and I have and will vote for Biden, but your head is deep in the sand if you believe Biden’s senility and lack of charisma isn’t hurting him here. The only thing we’re lucky on is that Donald is running again who is for all intents just as senile and far more deranged and far less compassionate.

But Biden doesn’t hold a candle to Obama.

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3 points

There it is again “senility”. Everyone working with him says he’s sharp, but you just gotta get it in. Would I prefer younger? Sure. But he’s not senile JFC. Lack of charisma? The guy presents absolutely fine and does great work. How much does one need to appeal to emotions.

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24 points
*

Right!?

Young and charismatic. That’s all that is necessary for Dems to sweep elections. Proven time and time again. With a hearty message of progress and love.

It’s that fucking simple.

(signed someone who ultimately voted for Hillary and Biden but they were far from my 1st preference in the primaries).

Edit: Typo.

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20 points

Young and charismatic might mean higher taxes for the rich and more progressive policies.

The Democratic leadership doesn’t want that. They really like the neoliberal consensus, they like having funding parity with the Republicans. They like being seen as “very serious people “ and they’re deathly afraid of being called socialists.

The problem is that their apparatchiks all came of age, politically, in the 1990s under that same neoliberal golden age. That’s not the world they’re in anymore. They aren’t running against Bush the Elder, and cutting taxes while playing jazz isn’t going to cut it when they’re losing working class votes to fascists.

We saw this play out horribly in the UK: where Labour’s party leaders would rather sabotage their own leader because he was too progressive then risk him winning and give socialism credibility.

The political left really liked the 1990s, but it’s a bygo era and it isn’t coming back.

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2 points

I agree that the third-way shtick of the Clinton era must go. Watering down reality to appeal to ignorance just doesn’t work.

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1 point
*

How long til they all die of old age?

Do we have that long?

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-1 points

The last time the Democrats ran a progressive candidate allowed Nixon to sweep every state except a few in that election. I mean, just look at this shit!

So yeah, if anyone is wondering why the Democrats don’t run progressive candidates, this is why! They’ve only moved further to the right since then. Expecting Democrats to run a progressive would likely sweep the whole nation blue, but if you thought tRump was bad, a progressive would be just as bad for monied interests, which have only grown more emboldened and enriched the last 40-45 years.

It will take a lot of time, I’m afraid, to undo the damage Republicans have have done with their shitty ideals and politics, starting largely with Reagan’s racist, homophobic, anti-union, and regulation gutting bullshit!

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5 points
*

In fairness I emphasized young and charismatic — was McGovern charismatic? I don’t know about that.

Still, I think this is the exception as opposed to the norm, considering we can point to FDR, JFK, Carter, Clinton, and Obama. RFK was setting up to be another obvious front-runner.

It’s a race to the bottom to put forward someone who will water their rhetoric down and cater to ignorance; but of course, some of the country isn’t educated enough to understand why progressive policies must be better — hence why you run someone young and charismatic — hence why Obama swept traditionally red counties that neither Hillary nor Biden picked up.

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6 points

No!…it’s the voters who are wrong. Better blame theme some more, as that will surely boost our historically abysmal national voter turnout come November.

/s

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3 points

I’m starting to think that the corporations (who own both parties, but prefer republicans) are sabotaging the democrats. That’s why they ran Hillary. And now we have an absolute joke of a Supreme Court that will suck every single nanoliter of jizz from the corporate dick any time day or night.

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3 points

Blackstone wants democrats to win while Blackrock wants republicans to win. To corporations, the choice between biden and trump is like Coke vs Pepsi because they largely win either way even if they’re a bit disappointed they have to drink Pepsi when they wanted Coke.

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-6 points

I’m starting to think that the corporations (who own both parties, but prefer republicans) are sabotaging the democrats. That’s why they ran Hillary.

Oh my god you’re so frustratingly close to realizing the truth that we’ve been telling you all along.

The corporations (and Putin) did sabotage the Democrats. But not by some bizarre overcomplicated plan of infiltrating of the DNC to send up moderate candidates who consistently win the popular vote yet are just unlikeable enough to not win swing states. They just used propaganda to get people like you to hate perfectly good candidates.

You can see controlled opposition in the Green party and RFK Jr. They put up shit candidates and then try to pull some people away from Democrats. If the corporations and Putin could infiltrate the Democratic party, they would just have the DNC close up shop and we would have Republicans forever. Why the fuck would corporations try to put up a candidate who wants to raise their taxes?

You’re coming up with these insane scenarios because it’s embarrassing to admit that you are one of the ones who fell for the propaganda, but think about it. Occams Razor. That’s the simplest explanation.

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2 points

Ok

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3 points

You’re totally right they should just put their hand inside the magical candidate bag where all the charismatic candidates are stored, say the magic formula, and pull one out. How stupid can they be!

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2 points
*

We could try running a fair and open primary…

If we really want to focus on getting the most popular candidate with voters rather than the corporate favorite moderate…

Dems have complete control of their primary, they can get corporate money out of it at literally any second.

But they dont.

Because the people running the party don’t want the candidate that voters are most likely to vote for. They want the candidate that will get the most donations from corporations and billionaires.

Lots of people keep trying to explain why if beating Republicans is the only thing that matters, everyone involved in the process should make choices that maximize the amount of votes that the Dem candidate gets.

However “moderates” keep insisting the wealthy and corporations gets what they want and everyone else need to support them unquestionably…

Which is already what the Republicans do.

So if both parties are catering to the rich and powerful…

Why not try giving the millions and millions of voters what they want and making the rich and powerful compromise?

Why do they always win no matter what?

Historically giving Dem voters a candidate they want translates to a Dem president.

Biden won by less than 100k.votes spread out between 3-5 battleground states. And has nowhere near his 2020 support. Probably because in 2020 he was pretending to be more left leaning.

And 2024 he’s just ignoring anyone that’s saying anything besides unadulterated praise.

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-5 points

When the other side are fascists openly running on a platform of doing fascists, needing to feel excited to fall in line and vote against them just makes you a fascist who thinks they can get bribes out of it.

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10 points

“It’s not our job to campaign or do politics, the Democrats cannot fail, only be failed” - Democrats, totally caring about fascism.

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-8 points

If you need more than “the fascists will win if we lose”, you’re a fucking fascist.

Quit trying to make your wanting to be bribed to not let concentration camps happen some kind of moral cause or “well they should have made me want it more!” realist cynic take.

If you need more than “the fascists will win if we lose”, you are a fucking fascist, and will be treated accordingly when the people who you’re actually hurting have their chance to reap justice for what you let be done to them.

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5 points

Who cares?

What works is running charismatic candidates.

So why not run charismatic candidates and beat the fascists?

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-4 points
Removed by mod
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85 points

No, DNC, you’re not out of touch. It’s the voters who are wrong.

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21 points
*

That is really the best way to put my frustrations. IT IS NOT MY FAULT YOU DON’T LIKE ME, ITS YOURS. It is literally a popularity contest and you are worried about losing to a criminal. But sure, we are the crazies, not you. This country has never needed another party so bad.

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-1 points

Who’s the DNC? We need names. Also the voters, i guess?

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20 points

Key people: Jaime Harrison (Chair) Chris Korge (Finance chair) Jason Rae (Secretary)

Taken from Wikipedia because who actually knows that shit

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66 points

Not saying you shouldn’t do the right thing when the choice is limited, but how about the DNC stops putting its finger on the scale for unpopular establishment candidates?

It’s clear that the ‘safe’ choice can still lose, so why not go for the person the base actually likes instead of another centrist wet napkin who appeals to no one?

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16 points

Because the DNC is conservative. They don’t want a left leaning candidate. That’s not who they intend to represent. They represent money. That is all. They will let the Republicans pull things to the extreme right and then they can hang out right of center and now there is no other choice.

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4 points

The DNC is bought by big money donors just like the RNC is. Those big money donors would rather see a fascist in charge than a socialist.

History repeats itself once again.

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4 points

Because the base likes centrist wet napkins. I’m not sure who you’re picturing as the base democratic voter block but they’re not exactly a bunch of radicals.

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2 points

Reminds me of when the army tried to simplify uniforms by measuring a bunch of soldiers for data and making an average size medium, large, and small that ended up not fitting anyone well at at all.

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-1 points
*

People always trying to push Biden bad. This is the candidate that won. He is popular. This is what the base likes.

Everytime the Dems move left they lose. Happened to Al Gore, he tried to move left after hopefully the population warmed up with Bill Clinton. Bam lost the election. Thanks 3rd party voters. Hillary tried just a tiny little bit with the map room to fight climate change, after hopefully the population warmed up with Obama. Bam lost the election. Thanks protest no-voters!

Imagine what the landscape would be if they won. If you want the Dems to move left, you have to give them victories. Because when they lose, they go to the center to find voters.

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Happened to Al Gore, he tried to move left after hopefully the population warmed up with Bill Clinton.

Gore didn’t lose. had a proper recount been done (including the overvotes,) Gore probably would have won. SCOTUS intervened and stopped recount of the undervotes and Gore never pushed for recounts of the overvotes (which should have been recounted anyhow by florida state law.)

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-10 points

Oh so we had President Gore? We can talk all day about recounts, but we did not have President Gore. Thanks 3rd party voters!

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6 points

Gore ran to the left? The guy who picked Lieberman as his VP?

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4 points

Gore the big climate change candidate. Yeah that’s left.

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3 points

They need the conservative voters in swing states. Do the Dems in swing states get excited about leftists or progressives? Like in 2016 Hillary had more votes in AZ, NV, FL, OH. I wish Bernie had gotten to the general and I think the EC is a cancer. But I don’t think going by popular vote is a viable strategy given that we have to deal with that reality.

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2 points

They need swing voters and yeah that’s what I’m saying. When they lose, they go to the center to find the swing voters.

So how do you get them to go left? By giving them victories. Because when they lose they go to the center.

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-3 points

That’s a great conversation to have the next time its relevant.

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21 points

When will that be?

We couldn’t primary Biden in 2024 if we wanted to. Even the unaligned votes that should be a symbol of “hey, you’re not pleasing your base” were ignored. In 2028, they’ll surely push K-hole as the safe choice because even if Trump dies, you know they’ll put his head in a jar to run him again and clearly his only natural enemy is bland centre-right politics.

Biden’s appeal wasn’t that he was charismatic or brilliant or super-competent… it was that he was a reasonably sincere, respectable human, and he’s proceeded to squander that by failing to handle Gaza gracefully.

Don’t tell me he can’t do anything. Just run the same playbook we subjected Venezuela or Cuba to, and that would get Bibi’s attention.

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8 points

You act like this is some big Injustice or surprise. Let me ask you a question. When has any party ever primaried an incumbent candidate of their party. Who were the 2019 republican primary candidates? Are the Democrats doing anything to you. Or are you a victim of your misunderstanding. This isn’t a defense of Democrats mind you. It’s just unusual that they’re always held to different/unrealistic expectations.

Also I think it’s important to point out. One of the only people to even remotely seriously push to primary Joe Biden was Dean Phillips. You know the Trump appeaser. Who recently called for New York’s Governor to Pardon Trump. Sure sad I didn’t get to vote for that man LOL. The fact is everyone knew there would not be and didn’t necessarily need to be a primary this year. I hope everyone is ready for 28 though. I’m really hoping for some younger blood now that the boomers are dying out. Honestly I’d like to see Ocasio Cortez make an effort. She’s young and might not make it. But she’s got plenty of time to work at it and hone her skills.

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7 points
*

Biden was the incumbent. When he chose to run in 2024, the decision was made. You don’t just throw away that advantage. If the DNC funded an opponent, it would only divide the base.

Case an point - just look around at Lemmy users. There are still a ton of users clinging onto the DNC boycott after the controversy of Hillary getting the 2016 nomination.

Now is not the time to divide further. Now is the time to shut the fascists down before we lose the ability to run any opposition, charismatic or not, in 2028.

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4 points
*

You mean now? The convention hasn’t happened yet.

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-12 points
Removed by mod
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3 points

What does Bush Jr have to do with this? More seriously, Are you going to publish this somewhere?

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1 point
*

So Bush Jr. had the lowest approval rating for a president that won a second term. He ended his second term with one of the lowest approval rating of any president of all time (just a short and curly ahead of Nixon).

Some detail:

Including George W. Bush

Approval Shifts:
    Mean Shift: 1.91%
    Standard Deviation: 10.53%
Winning Candidates' Approval Ratings:
    Mean Approval Rating: 50.73%
    Standard Deviation: 11.14%

Excluding George W. Bush

Approval Shifts:
    Mean Shift: 3.60%
    Standard Deviation: 9.40%
Winning Candidates' Approval Ratings:
    Mean Approval Rating: 56.35%
    Standard Deviation: 4.31%

Notice how the standard deviation associated with the winning candidate tightens up significantly with out Bush?

I do publish the results of these analyses, here, on lemmy. However, I just have a day job that has prevented me from doing “the rest” of this analysis. This is only one part of a larger analysis I have planned.

Here are the two distributions:

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0 points

ROFL. Someone known to be VERY biased and anti-democracy, did an analysis….

The results were shocking- SHOCKING I tell you!

Similarly, I did research on socialism. Yeah. I know. Ironic, right? We’re both researching things at the same time? Anyway… The results say it won’t work in America. So…

There’s that. You can stop now.

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-3 points
*
Removed by mod
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60 points

al gore won that election.

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12 points

But it was stolen due to 5 hard right justices

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-13 points

Mmmm. Yeah.

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12 points
7 points

Once again Roger Stone is involved in undemocratic activities.

That guy has caused so much damage.

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6 points

Holy shit… That was a coup!

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59 points

Quit putting up shit candidates assholes!

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27 points

Yeah seriously; this post sucks.

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6 points

AOC for President with Biden as VP. It would destroy the Republicans… they’d have strokes within a few days. With Biden as VP all the boomers that actually like Biden will be onboard.

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2 points

Yeah!

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