I honestly don’t see them. If anything I feel men are being forced to be more fragile, just to be more accepted and this has only backfired. Now more and more men are getting depressed and dating less than ever. Of course in a place like this is an unpopular post. But I don’t care. I’ve seen enough and it’s frustrating.
I agree with the effects you’re seeing but not the cause.
Women’s liberation changed how women are presented in society. It fundamentally changed what it means to be a woman.
Men never went through that. At the moment, we sorta can’t. If I were to create a “men’s liberation" group, it would quickly be taken over by Incels. Hard-core feminists would also stir up a fuss that this group was exclusionary to them. So we are kind of stuck.
Manhood needs to be redefined, because many of the classic male role definitions no longer apply. men can be sensitive where historically they’ve been expected to be stoic. Men can raise children when classically they have been breadwinners while the women raise children.
I think these are all great changes, but we haven’t been able to redefine manhood in the same way that the feminists were able to redefine womanhood.
I don’t have a good answer, we are somewhat handcuffed by the expectation to fulfil classic roles, along with new expectations to be more modern feminist-aware, sensitive men. The two are not compatible enough to make for a nice midpoint.
There are some good men’s lib groups, but they take diligence so that they don’t fall to the incels. The one on reddit was actually pretty decent (prob still is but I haven’t checked in awhile), and there are a couple on lemmy but they’re not really active
I don’t know if we have to make a societal decision to change the definition of manhood. I think just by accepting that men can be sensitive, and don’t have to be bread winners, more men will fill those roles (and not feel like they have to hide it). And as time goes on, the more men live like that, the more the definition of manhood will change in its own.
We need to free ourselves from the shackles of roles-past.
That’s what feminism did.
So what if I’m not the breadwinner?
So what if I cry at sappy moments in movies?
So what if I need validation for my feelings?
Society is still okay with pushing this onto men, and it needs a moment of unity to say “this does not define me as a man”
I honestly don’t see them. If anything I feel men are being forced to be more fragile, just to be more accepted and this has only backfired
Yeah, huge surprise you don’t see any of the toxic traits if you think men are being “forced to be more fragile” and that’s why you aren’t dating as much.
Men were just as depressed before, the only difference is now we admit to it.
And there’s this whole thing with correlation and causation.
In the midst of a million different other potential causes, they are identifying “masculine fragility” as the big contributor to depression? Not missing data points, not social media, not the momentum of societal change in the last 30y, not socioeconomic factors, potential comorbidities as contributors, increasingly inflammatory politics, globalization as a whole, …
It’s so dumb to single this out. Sure some people need more confidence, but being “more masculine” sounds like the worst plan ever to gain healthy confidence. If you have problems with your confidence there’s usually other factors at play and the most efficient way to improve is to seek a therapist and sort your life or your brain out.
Same goes for dating by the way. A million factors that are potentially contributing to that one, and that’s a two player game, so even more factors to consider.
This comment, hell this whole thread, is enormously insightful and productive. It feels like a genuine discussion of men’s issues that isn’t on the offensive as it often feels when masculinity is the topic. Thank you and all commenters like you who took the time to make a good point.
Seeing regular masculinity as toxic. Just out right judging people for not being more feminine and doing normal guy stuff.
Like bunch of guys joking around having fun. "Oh that’s toxic masculinity.
Yeah, I kind of agree. Toxic masculinity is a thing, but it doesn’t mean all masculinity is automatically toxic.
Then again, usually when I’m hanging out with guys and the testosterone level runs a bit high, someone will crack a joke about it and we’ll laugh at ourselves.
I think having a fragile ego and not being able to joke about yourself and/or your masculinity probably does make it on in the toxic list.
“Check out my hotsauce collection!” or otherwise making mundane things into competitions.
If you use hot sauce so slowly you can keep a collection going, you’re doing it wrong.
I’m picky about which hot sauce goes with which foods, so I have a ton of hot sauces “in use” in my refrigerator at any given time.
Using them almost constantly, I don’t feel I’m doing it wrong.
But maybe I’m misunderstanding “collection” — would this be a ton of unopened bottles kept somewhere?
I guess the latter was my assumption. I, like you, have several in rotation. Usually 3-4 “super hots” from Puckerbutt, some interesting ones, a couple Asian-style options, a Louisiana style, and, during pepper season, a fermented style of my own creation.
But I just use them all the time on almost every meal. It would never really occur to me to bring them all out and put them on the table and be like, “behold, my collection,” though I guess when I have people over and I cook/grill, I bring a few out and let people know the heat range if they want any. But that’s kind of what you do with condiments, and no one would say “he’s showing off his bbq condiment collection” if I brought out a few styles of bbq sauce.
I guess I just envisioned some guy with a room dedicated to his shelves of unopened hot sauce like those dudes that collect unopened toys. Lol
So I think I know what you’re talking about, but I don’t think having hobbies is the issue here.
You do see this a lot when guys are talking and someone brings up a sort of niche hobby (tech, fan bases, something that requires a lot of knowledge)
Guys will all show interest but not want to be talked down to or mansplained to on a topic they’re passionate about (yes ladies we experience it too)so they overcorrect and try to prove their knowledge real fast.
This sometimes leads to a sort of feedback loop where the other person thinks they’re trying to one up them and tries to be the more knowledgeable one and on and on, I’ve seen so many guys do this, that’s why I avoid talking about hobbies with IRL friends (looking at you RuneScape)
…ok, I’ve never considered hot sauce as something to collect.
But I DO collect amiibo. And if I owned my own house you can bet there would be a whole room where I display them.
Whats wrong with feeling proud of your collecting habbits?
The need to always seem manly around other men…in particular the choice of music. Ride in the car with certain people, they always have to be blasting hard rock or rap, or hard country depending on your location.
Meanwhile I’m over here enjoying switching between pop, rock, new wave, alt and even my playlist of exclusively Elton John, Phil Collins, Peter Gabriel and Billy Joel
Not a guy, but the one that really gets me is willfully incompetence - particularly around household or family chores (and the mental load associated with them).
Yeah, sorry but this one is just counterproductive. Guys just don’t give a fuck. No one is going around “ooh, what if I pretend I can’t do this task so she then has to do it”. That’s just patriarchy and gender roles for you. Maybe try to have a conversation about the subject of chores without sticking the “you’re evil” tag on the other person. Well, for anything in life really. Also mental load is there for anyone, I see no point in bringing it up in this context. The dudes have to deal with a fair share of mental load as well, specially with all the emotional neglect and immaturity.
“Guys don’t give a fuck.”
That’s it. That’s the toxic trait right there.
I worry you may be misinterpreting the phrase in its particular context, and I’d hate to see that happen.
This is why I think weaponized incompetence is a better term than willful incompetence.
I don’t think it’s even always intentional, conscious, or willful. It’s just, well, “not giving a fuck”, and getting away with it because women are always around to deal with their shit.
It’s called “brokedishing” and choosing the right dish to break is an art form.
I work from home so I typically do the majority of the cleaning; I don’t mind because I’m a bit of a clean freak anyway.
What I found odd is when my wife’s family from Mexico were visiting she turned into a maid and would shoo me away from things like washing a single dish (for example).
Not sure if it was cultural or what but it definitely threw me off — I don’t want her family thinking I’m making her do everything all the time.
