You know, I wrote it kind as a flippant comment, not expecting anyone to pay attention (because, really, who pays attention to me?) and suddenly it’s all over the place.
Anyway, I already responded to a lot of people who commented on the original post. I eventually had to mute it due to too much traffic. So if you want to see more, go look at what people were telling me over there. I don’t disagree with most of it, and I think having a good discussion on the subject of this is probably a good thing.
You wrote the original “your body, my choice” comment? Where’s the original comment with all the discussion you mentioned?
Are links allowed? https://wandering.shop/@realtegan/113465326723014007
Edit: It’s also in the original post, I just noticed. Not used to Lemmy yet. And I’m treating the first part of your post as being as flippant as I tend to be. If you meant it, please let me know so I can swat you with the clue-by-four.
This is not correct. Do not do this.
“Your body, my choice” does not rise to the level of an imminent threat of violence or lawless behavior. It’s certainly not “fighting words” as defined by SCOTUS. Without an immediate threat of violence, you do not have a legal right to use physical force. Even in states with ‘make my day’ laws, this is absolutely not something you can respond to with violence.
I am not an attorney, I am not your attorney, and I would strongly suggest that you consult with a competent criminal defense attorney before you take this course of action.
People are confusing moral and legal rights.
Women absolutely have the moral right to nut-knee someone who says that to them. I wouldn’t stop them or testify against them.
People generally don’t have the legal right to do that. If someone tries that and gets sued, it will be up to them to prove that there was an imminent credible threat. If the guy is still alive, they’ll be able to claim that YBMC is just a joke and it would be up to the victim to prove that it wasn’t.
The law needs to catch up. MAGAs have been doing this for a while. Where they say absolute heinous stuff, under the gaze of “freedom of speech and expression” until it becomes accepted enough for some other asshole to be emboldened enough to try and get away with it or even get passed as law! A tactic loved by fascists around the globe. It works similarly to a false prophecy.
MAGAs can’t rape women? They’ll make it clear that women will have their rights revoked into the future so they better “get used to it” starting now. MAGAs can’t kill women? They’ll just take life critical healthcare away. With this combination it’s not only EVEN MORE LIKELY than usual someone will get away with rape, but that it’ll result in the woman’s death!
“Your body, my choice” should be seen as a death threat and should be dealt with accordingly. Any kids saying this should be made vividly aware of just how fucking monstrous those words are, and should face detention or even the threat of expulsion if they refuse to stop it. This is not a light matter. We’re talking about rasing rapist here!
But Americans sure don’t seem to agree, they still see school shootings as a “whatever, put in more police officers” to shoot at the kids with guns kind of issue, so what do I know? I guess raping and shooting up kids is what America desires and I’m the weird foreigner brining in my weird values.
Laws constantly need to catch up.
I’m not sure what law would be an improvement though. The courts tend to frown on laws that are directed at specific groups of people so you probably couldn’t have something as specific as, “When a man says YBMC to a woman she’s allowed to consider it a rape threat and knee him in the nuts.” It also wouldn’t be terribly effective since those people would likely find some variation that skirts the law but carries exactly the same message. That’s so common a tactic we even have a name for it, “dogwhistles”.
The most general form is a “stand your ground” law. Ie we don’t question the motives of the “defender”, we just assume they were right. That has some obvious issues too.
There might be something between those two that would work, but I don’t know what it would be.
I’ve literally had people argue with me saying that someone wearing Nazi paraphernalia in public was legally an immediate threat of violence that you could respond to with lethal force. No, I’m not joking or exaggerating. A lot of people take this kind of thing at face value.
But it is.
It’s irresponsible to put into young girls minds that some fuckwit saying a political slogan equates to a rape threat and you should assault them.
She’s literally telling people to feel safe committing an offence.
I’m sure many people will disagree with me, go for your lives, but I’m not talking about the slogan or choice, I’m saying if someone says 4 words to you and you attack them, you will be held legally responsible.
Wait are you saying that crimes have consequences? I thought that wasn’t actually true anymore from what I have seen going on lately.
As a guy, I’d acquit if I went on a jury for a case like this. It only take one to hang, and they don’t have the resource to keep trying forever.
You would likely be removed for cause from the jury pool if you said something like this during questioning from attorneys.
I understand what you are saying.
But anyone saying that to women is a clear threat and I will defend myself against anyone saying this to me and not accept this rising level of violent speech.
Force can only legally be used against imminent threats. (This, BTW, is why women tend to get convicted of murder when they kill their abusive partners; they tend to do it at a time when their partner is not harming them.) Even if you are positive that someone intends you great bodily harm or death, you can not use force legally until the moment arrives when they are trying to cause that harm. You can not pre-emptively self-defend.
If you use lethal force in the absence of an imminent, immediate threat of great bodily harm or death, it is highly likely that you would be arrested, charged, and convicted.
Indeed Inspector HelixDab, that is the letter of the law.
That said, anyone who says that to a woman deserves to have their balls kicked it, regardless of the legality. Laws are largely written to maintain order and uphold the status quo, they are not a divine tool for determining morality or justice; Rosa Parks broke the law by sitting in a part of the bus reserved for white people, but in retrospect that was a vital act of resistance.
Tolerance of patriarchal domination does not make for a more just society, it only makes things worse. Knee those balls if you can get away with it.
Not sure where your getting the idea that you can’t defend yourself from the threat of harm or realistic perception of that threat. You absolutely can.
Heck even if the perception isn’t reasonable you still can. Your case is just much harder to defend.
If someone is just an ass and says YBMC to you that’s probably not legit, but context matters too. If it’s said in a threatening matter, that’s a threat plain and simple.
As always flight should be the primary response but fighting off you can’t run would be fine.
I’m the end, if you have to defend your life, then do so. Worry about the legality after. Don’t let someone hurt you because the Internet said the law isn’t on your side. Don’t get hurt cus the cops aren’t on your side, the cops are never on your side.
Agreed. Also, “Your body, my choice” is possibly meant as a threat, possibly meant as a taunt. But, what it definitely is: a statement of power. Asshole men are saying this because they think the landscape has shifted so much that they can now get away with it – and they’re probably right.
American police are already some of the biggest right-wing assholes. Who do you think they’re going to side with in a confrontation where a man says this to a woman? Even if legally a woman were 100% justified in responding with violence, in the real world where men have the power, and men are feeling even more powerful since Trump’s victory, being legally right isn’t enough.
It absolutely is assault at should be reported as such.
It is an implicit threat.
Get a fucking clue.
I 100% guarantee you, not one single police officer in my town would take the woman’s side in this scenario. Right or not, its just how it would go.
Let the court decide. Jury of peers would see it as a threat. Get enough cases like this and cops would start to see it as normal fighting (If you claim assault, so will they) and both parties will start to get off with warnings. One of which will reconsider saying such things again.
You might be right that it is an implicit threat and as a threat it constitutes verbal assault, but you’d have a hard time making any real headway in court with that, especially in a he said/she said situation. It might be a crime, but it’s one which will see almost no prosecution.
My friend is a teacher. He has heard kids say your body my choice.
I really hope schools are taking a zero tolerance policy with this. Kids need to learn that shit is absolutely not ok.
I would hope that schools sit down with kids that say this and discuss what the statement means, how it is interpreted, and ask the kid to put himself in the other person’s shoes. Not a big fan of punishing kids harshly for things they may well have copied from their parents.
Hate to say this but schools are heavily influenced by the shitty parents of said kids.
There was an older comic, lemme pull it up:
Sorry for the 9gag quality, but I’m sure it gets the point across.
“bUt I oNlY hEaR pEoPlE sAyInG iT oN lEmMy aNd rEdDiT”
Guess people will always like to stick their heads in the ground like a freaking ostrich.
That went from protecting religious values to abusing people real fucking quick right? It was never about that.
What sort of degenerate would say that in anything but satire? I mean, I’ve both heard and read it recently, but what do we call them?
Typical Young Male Republican
Andrew Tate Fan
Angry Incel
Aspiring Rapist
Make a Venn Diagram, these are all almost one perfect circle.
Good to see even in that hellscape people are responding appropriately (top comments).
It’s pages and pages of OP getting blasted.
"leopards ate my face
“On October 16th, 2015, Twitter user @cavalorn tweeted, “‘I never thought leopards would eat MY face,’ sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People’s Faces Party.” The tweet became a common way to refer to regretful voters over the following five years.”
I mean theres one instance where I think it okay to say it. To women who voted trump. In order to demonstrate a point.
