Let’s not conflate income and wealth. With a living wage you may not be able to accumulate wealth, but at least you will have your daily essentials covered.
My concern with a universal income is that it discourages healthy people from working and thus contributing to our collective wellbeing. So while in principle it helps some people who currently fall through the cracks of our welfare system, it also reduces the pool of people contributing to it through their taxes. Is it a net win? I don’t know.
You’ll find that, overall, it’s actually the opposite. Healthy people who have all of their basic needs covered feel a big incentive to do productive and valuable work. Sure, there will be the freeloader here and there. But in general, people want to do cool things, even boring or simple things, as long as they feel they are contributing to something good.
But in general, people want to do cool things, even boring or simple things, as long as they feel they are contributing to something good.
Do people who retire contribute to society more or less than they did before retirement? Pensioners are the closest thing we have to a long-term UBI today.
It’s an unfair comparison. A pensioner is someone that by definition already contributed the most they could to the economy. As experience has it, plenty of pensioners continue to work even after retirement.
We have seen experiments with ubi and they almost unanimously conclude that it’s a net positive, people tend to find work that both they actually want to work in and have the most skill on. It improves work conditions overall as well. Instead of settling for worse conditions or unfit positions.
Happy people are more efficient and productive. That’s a no brainer.
Retired people can contribute time to their families, the community, and other non-capitalist endeavors. So could one spouse in a single income family, or those that don’t need to work for income, but to generate profit every adult is now expected to work and never retire.
a universal income is that it discourages healthy people from working and thus contributing to our collective wellbeing
Is it better for people to be in constant fear of poverty while being maximally productive or for people to choose to be less productive in a field they enjoy while being supported by taxes extracted from corporations and the ultra-rich?
The last chapter of ‘Bullshit Jobs’ covers it way better than I can. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-bullshit-jobs#toc52
Is it better for people to be in constant fear of poverty while being maximally productive or for people to choose to be less productive in a field they enjoy while being supported by taxes extracted from corporations and the ultra-rich?
If you were super rich and your taxes increased dramatically, what would you do? If you were a corporation and your taxes increased dramatically, what would you do? And where would this all lead? The real world doesn’t always work the way we would like it to.
A UBI program was implemented in a part of Ontario to study it’s impact.
Results showed that people were able to cover their basic essential needs and the vast majority were able to improve their career by finally being able to spend time getting training for better job opportunities and improve their living conditions as a whole. It also allowed them to get certain healthcare services that aren’t covered by OHIP like dental care.
Sources:
https://www.utpjournals.press/doi/full/10.3138/cpp.37.3.283
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200624-canadas-forgotten-universal-basic-income-experiment
It also allowed them to get certain healthcare services that aren’t covered by OHIP like dental care.
That sounds like a good reason to expand OHIP, which doesn’t require a UBI.
As for the rest, I wonder to what extent it went that way because the participants knew it was a short term experiment. Pensioners are not the epitome of productivity.
Why are you playing devil’s advocate? Are you opposed to giving everyone an equal opportunity in life?
Have you even read the links I provided to you? At least read the article?
My concern with a universal income is that it discourages healthy people from working and thus contributing to our collective wellbeing.
Every study I’ve heard of shows that is not what happens except in very narrow situations. For example, the study run in Dauphin, MB found that teenagers were less likely to work or to work less, but that was because they were choosing to focus on their schooling and, in some cases, actually stay in school. IIRC, there were also people who chose to stay at home with young children or care for infirm relatives rather than find other care options so they could go to low wage, “low skill” jobs. Those outcomes seem positive given the results of other studies regarding education and family care.
There is a general problem in mass psychology where people sitting around a table or in their armchairs try to imagine the impact of a policy without conducting a study or looking at historical results.
There is a general problem in mass psychology where people sitting around a table or in their armchairs try to imagine the impact of a policy without conducting a study or looking at historical results.
Let me present some more historical results: retirees. Do pensioners contribute more or less to society than before they retired? Are they a net contributor or a net drag? A UBI turns everybody into a pensioner.
The two situations are not identical, but they give me pause.
This may not apply everywhere, but around here (Saskatchewan), retirees are the lifeblood of service and community organizations. From the quilting club that generates revenue for brain injury research and food banks to the senior centre that helps people age in place, retirees are a critical component of the glue that holds us together.
Even if you have a fairly narrow economic view of what it means to contribute to society, there is no question that retirees are making those contributions. While actual money is required for most things, nothing happens without people putting in time and retirees have plenty of time and aren’t shy about using it.
This is something I became aware of as my older relatives retired. Now that I’m retired myself, I’m more active than ever in the community, despite having also retired from the volunteer fire and rescue service.
A UBI turns everybody into a pensioner.
Wait what? This is not even close to true.
So a person who has contributed heavily to society should have no expectation to reduce their contribution, except perhaps some of the wisdom they accrued over the years? Work til we die, or we hold no value? I question your worldview. For what other reason have we progressed technologically except to make life easier? The only other realistic options are to increase the rate of progress or to reward some few people excessively while the rest of us work ourselves to death. Perhaps it’s time to consider the middle ground.
My concern with a universal income is that it discourages healthy people from working and thus contributing to our collective wellbeing.
😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡
Thank you for your very articulate and respectful counterpoint. It sure helped me learn something new.
I’m not sure someone smoothbrained enough to think that UBI “enables lazy people” really deserves a well thought-out counterpoint. It would be akin to convincing a bowl of turds one way or another.
Really hope these comments helped you reasses this crappy take. Or at least ask yourself where this concern actually came from.
Really hope these comments helped you reasses this crappy take
Insulting people rarely changes their minds.
I am aware of various pilot projects and remain unconvinced. Pensioners are the closest thing we have to an UBI, and to my knowledge their contribution to society falls off a cliff once their retire. Sure, some of them may volunteer here and there but overall they contributed much more through their taxes when they were working.
So you learned nothing and refused to accept criticism as anything other than a personal attack on your character. Not even gonna address your continued crappy defense of your crappy take.
Also, your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries. There’s your insult.
