It’s amazing that people are even questioning taking out Hamas… Do they actually not understand that the reason the children are in danger is because they have hesitated when Hamas has done this in the past - using the children as human shields?
What kind of absolute sociopath would trade the thousands of lives Hamas will take if they’re allowed to live, just because they use the world’s humanity against it?
When it costs one life to save millions and there is no choice because the evil Hamas has set this price, it must be paid.
Shame on Hamas for putting these children in danger. May they rot in hell for their horrifying, demonic and evil sin.
To be clear, if some criminal has human hostages you’re fine if the building they are in is torched?
Will the criminals take more hostage if we don’t act? Are the hostage takers willing to return the hostages safely? Is it feasible to attempt a rescue operation that doesn’t just put many more at risk? Does this criminal organization’s continued existence have a human life cost to it?
Curious to know if you think shooting down United 93 on 9/11 would have been the right thing to do or not? (had the US Airforce got there in time). What say you?
To be clear, if some criminal has human hostages you’re fine if the building they are in is torched?
Not the same thing. The hostage takers in your example are only posing a danger to the hostages themselves. There is no outside harm caused by deciding not to act. Hamas on the other hand poses a real danger to Israel. Not counter attacking Hamas would result in attacks on Israeli citizens, so Israel has to act. Hamas is using the hospital as an unethical way of shielding itself from such counter attacks because they know Western war philosophy aims to minimize civilian casualties, so attacks on hospitals hurt Israels global support. However, by operating from within a hospital, Hamas are making the hospital a valid military target. Minimizing civilian casualties goes both ways. You don’t attack hospitals unless they are a valid military target and you don’t set up military operations inside hospitals so as to prevent them from becoming valid military targets.
Look at how many Palestinians have been killed vs Israelis. Just look at the numbers. What kind of psychopath is willing to kill even more people who have been being killed and oppressed for almost a century?
If this is a justification you accept for this level of violence from Isreal, then you can’t argue against anything Hamas has done without being a hypocrite.
And on a purely emotionless evaluation of the numbers, this kind of response from Isreal hasn’t worked for 80 years, but they keep killing innocent people. Maybe it’s time to try something else. Unless of course that’s not actually the reason.
"WHY DID YOU MAKE ME DO THIS? Your fighting, so you watch everyone around you die, THINK MARK, you’ll outlast every fragile, insignificant being on this planet. You’ll live to see this world crumble to dust and BLOW AWAY!
Everyone, and everything you know, WILL BE GONE… WHAT WILL YOU HAVE AFTER 500 YEARS?"
You sound like Marks Dad…
The problem is that Hamas is not just an organization, it’s also the ideology of resistance to the Israeli occupation. You can’t take out an ideology. Even if Hamas the organization is gone, another one will take its place.
The only way to take out such an organization is to eliminate the reason why it exists. It’s definitely not easy, and it takes a lot of negotiations and goodwill, making amends and getting over a lot of bad history. But waging war is achieving the exact opposite of that, and only creating the conditions for future conflicts.
eliminate the reason why it exists.
Well I think everybody knows exactly how to do that then, and it’s the exact opposite of what’s happening right now.
It’s almost like Israel and it’s supporters are shocked that a resistance movement formed in response to them murdering civilians and destroying homes of innocent families. Maybe it’s not the moral response, but no one can claim to be surprised by it.
The trouble is, the reason Hamas and similar groups exist it that Israel exists. Many people in Palestine, and also people in neighbouring countries and many Muslims who aren’t even directly involved, believe that the whole place should be a pure Muslim country. I’ve literally seen people protest for this on the streets here. How do you suggest that solution should be enforced?
They will not accept a country that has women and LGBTQ rights, music festivals, etc. in between them. They protested and attacked these targets for a reason for several decades now.
I just wish the people who wish for the reason Hamas exists to be gone would at least be honest about all the consequences it entails. Otherwise this is just a very comfortable position of moral high ground where people can claim they protect the victims but they won’t think any further.
If we read Netanyahu’s book, then I’m sure you’re right.
I’m not sure if there’s an opposing view.
Shame on Israel for treating a people the way they have for so long so that the only outcome could be Hamas.
If you torture an animal and it bites, who’s to blame? People like you have a very short term memory it seems, unwilling to look at how this situation was brought about.
You cannot treat people the way Israel has treated them and then get up in arms when you meet resistance.
People aren’t animals, though. They can take responsibility for their own decisions.
Also, where do you draw the line? You could take the same argument the other way around and claim Israel doesn’t actually commit war crimes. It’s because most of them are Jewish and they have been mass murdered multiple times throughout human history. They are now just fighting tooth and nail for having a safe place at least once in history.
It doesn’t work to be on one side if people want to resolve this conflict. Unless you literally want the other side to be completely annihilated.
They are now just fighting tooth and nail for having a safe place at least once in history.
Oh sure, Israel is just defending itself from an evil aggressor! It’s not imprisoning an entire people, robbing them of everything they have, taking over their land, routinely kidnapping and torturing their children, reducing cities to rubble, installing a system of apartheid, and ethnically cleansing the area.
Nope, none of that is happening and Hamas does what it does just because they are evil in nature.
Unless you literally want the other side to be completely annihilated.
If you look at what is happening and what the leadership in Israel routinely states, you’d understand that it is Israel that is annihilating Palestine. Instead you fall for sound bites and propaganda because you’re either too lazy or dishonest to figure out what is going on.
That’s because apparently someone decided, without discussion, that setting military headquarters in a hospital - where babies are born - is absolutely fine and moral move.
He said, believing the IOF, who has killed Palestinians with absolute impunity, and lying through the teeth about it
What would convince you? Based on what I can glean from various sources, it seems at least likely that the claim is true. I also don’t see what incentive the Israelis have to lie about it.
Sure where is the evidence of all those tunnels? Get outta here IDF shill.
While it does seem plausible. You don’t see what incentive the Israelis have to lie about it? Really?
Putting aside the lack of evidence of this, and the Israeli government’s history of being caught lying about this kind of thing, how many civilians is it defensible to kill per Hamas militant, and does the calculus change if they’re children?
…or are we taking the super credible IDF line and saying the infants are Hamas militants?
Putting aside existing evidence for it
There isn’t a specific count. Just like there is no count for “how many Russian civilians has to die for each Ukrainian soldier”. Israel didn’t ask this war, Hamas did. Hamas is in charge of Gaza, not Israel.
You understand that the Israeli government funded Hamas over the PLO, don’t you? Netanyahu signed the death warrant on his own citizens to create the pretext for the genocide he’s now accelerating - Netanyahu and the Israeli government did ask for this war.
Israel at least has a government and a democracy, and the government even has been somewhat honest with the NSO group and their crappy spyware tools - though I’m not sure why any of this needs to involve bombing hospitals or why “a functional democracy” has to be defended with such fervour, but hey at least we can hold onto the hope that democracy itself will mean that there will be a degree of accountability for those in power
Killing a building full of women and children to go after a group of people who may or may not be in said building after they killed women and children…
Two unscrupulous groups are willing to murder innocent civilians. Sounds like two groups of terrorists.
Fuck Hammas, fuck the IDF. I’m absolutely fine with them killing each other. I’m not okay with the fact that they’re both using innocent civilians as pawns.
The difference being the IDF has consistently gone to pretty significant lengths to warn civilians and give them time to evacuate. Hamas has not and in fact specifically targets civilians. These groups are not the same.
The difference being the IDF has consistently gone to pretty significant lengths to warn civilians and give them time to evacuate.
True, but then to bombard from the air destroying whole buildings and killing many civilians to get to a few combatants under the building is not an ethical or moral move either. You don’t get a get out of jail free card for notifying up front, you have to follow through.
Telling someone to evacuate is not enough, you have to verify they have evacuated. If they have not, you should be instead sending in ground troops, and yes with a larger cost in lives and political turmoil, but that is the ethical way.
Non-combatants are not supposed to be involved in combat.
Bullshit. There’s evidence of some warnings but with literally thousands of air strikes a week there literally isn’t the resources to warn everyone like they did during the “cease fire”. And you don’t get 10,000 civilians dead in a month by warning them.
So then when terrorists use human shields, which in this case include literal babies, it’s okay to ignore the human shields and just indiscriminately attack?
First of all, you’re either ignorant or an idiot if you think what Israel is doing is “indiscriminate”.
More importantly, what’s your superior moral alternative when a force breaches borders, murders hundreds, and takes and holds hundreds more as hostages, and then retreats to the cover of hospitals and schools in a dense city?
Does that force come from a people who’ve been deprived of everything, forced into a system of apartheid, robbed of their freedom and routinely bullied, tortured and killed for half a century?
That seems to be an important factor to just leave out of the equation.
“Pick up the gun…” - Bill Hicks
More importantly, what’s your superior moral alternative when a force breaches borders, murders hundreds, and takes and holds hundreds more as hostages, and then retreats to the cover of hospitals and schools in a dense city?
Let’s do a little thought experiment here. Say that everything happened exactly as before except this time they retreated and hid inside Israeli hospitals and schools, on the Israeli side of the border, full of Israeli citizens. Do you think Israel would attack those terrorists in the same way?
I didn’t say “it was okey”. I said i do understand why that happens. I am also saying Israel takes some steps to limit the number of civil victims, while Hamas takes none
Hamas has a different agenda. It’s an asymmetrical conflict. The intention of Hamas and Hezbollah is to provoke Israel into a genocide. Hiding among the trees to incite Netanyahu to burn down the forest.
They want nothing more then to get on video Israeli forces massacring thousands of Palestinian civilians.
So for Hamas, it’s Christmas.
I mean independently verified. The idf has a history of lying and some of the stuff mentioned in that article has already been disproven.
“IDF says…”
Of course. What reason would they have to lie? /s
Maybe we should wait until there’s been a more neutral investigation before deciding it’s one hundred percent true.
What I never understand about major news stories is that so many people take everything they see at face value and then consider it indisputable fact. When there’s an international war going on, no one thinks that just maybe we’re only getting a fraction of reality communicated to us? That it must be the worst game of telephone in terms of accuracy? But then if someone even suggests that maybe there’s more to the story, they’re conspiracy theorists or they get told what “side” they’re on.
We should all be at least somewhat discerning. There’s so many different actors with interests in this war. We have no idea what else could be going on that we will never, ever hear about, nor how much spin is being put on the stuff we do hear about.
Yea there’s no consensus that the ‘evidence’ produced is reliable. At first IDF showed the hatch to a water cistern and said it was the hatch to the network of tunnels. This new photo could just be a hole in the ground. The tour through the MRI room and truck loaded with weapons could be easily planted. Independent investigations like Forensic Architecture have found discrepancies and raised questions over the legitimacy of IDFs claims. Al Jazeera has reported that IDF had misreported facts to build a narrative.
US intelligence agrees that Hamas was operating out of the hospital, but there not much else backing up these claims right now.
**edited to remove a bad source
We need a hell of a lot more evidence to support that than we’ve seen, it would still run into major problems with proportionality/distinction standards regarding all the civilians they killed in and around the hospital, and it wouldn’t make a scratch with regard to the other civilian infrastructure they’ve targeted.
Do people think Hamas wouldn’t hide in a hospital? Theyve proved many times civilians aren’t a concern
To not kill babies and people in hospital care. Innocent life is never worth the victory, no matter what the propganda has told you.
Ok, think it though. What happens when you bomb and invade a hospital filled with civilians?
ok but if they’re hiding in a hospital you dont need to bomb it? or do anything to it? hiding is not hurting anyone.
hiding is not hurting anyone.
The assholes in the hospital are still shooting at the assholes outside the hospital. Though I still agree the assholes outside shouldn’t be bombing it just to get at the assholes inside.
For conflicts like this leadership that is planning attacks or otherwise leading forces that are doing attacking, simply existing anywhere outside a prison cell is threatening. Hamas leadership knows that, they’re the ones putting hostpitals at risk by being there.
right, but my point is, however inconvenient it is, we always have a choice not to bomb hospitals. People take human shields, you don’t have to shoot through the human shields.
Do I have all the answers? No, but people go to school for war. Surely this has come up before at some point in the last 20,000 years?
I think Hamas is hiding inside your house. What, do people think Hamas wouldn’t hide inside your house?
Do you consider that a good rebuttal. Truly a childish mind. Of course you can’t comprehend complex situations
“Oh yeah? Well you’re a dumb kid who can’t think smart thoughts”
Fucking gotem
Do people think that there can’t be two bad guys in a story? This isn’t a good vs evil fight.
This is a war between two terrorist organizations, one of them is funded by the United States.
We are funding terrorism. Your tax dollars are going to infant murder.
Hamas and Hezbollah are not the public of Palestine. So it raises the question if anybody cares. Netanyahu has made it clear to the rest of us he does not.
They look just like the public and fighting from where the public lives. What is Israel to do? Just accept getting massacred.
Does getting massacred justify massacring tenfold? I’m pretty sure the United States emmisaries had this very conversation with the state of Israel.
The thing is, Hamas and Hesbollah see provoking Israel to disproportionate reprisal as a worthwhile gambit. They know Netanyahu is glad to enact genocide justified by retaliation to terror. But now the world will get to watch the horrors of war under Israeli jackboots. And it will be ugly, and the world may have opinions about the Israeli state doing ugly things. The general opinion from the international community is changing. Along with the US’ unconditional support of a regional bully.
There are better ways. But Israeli state has rejected all alternatives, and is glad to throw stormtroopers into the mix.
And yes, the people of Israel, by a significant majority don’t want an overkill response. They want a path towards peace. But the far right does like us vs. them dynamics to consolidate power. It’s the same playbook Trump uses.
I’m not an expert. I don’t know how to fix this, but the experts were shown the door, so here we are. 👀
To people saying it’s justified because Hamas are hiding there, if Hamas wants to kill as many Israelis as possible they could hide in a Israeli hospital and the IDF, being consistent, would bomb it just the same since it now became a military target. Right?
Yeah, you know they wouldn’t, not the same way at least. Somehow Palestinians are an acceptable collateral while Israeli, specially Jews, would never be. That’s how you know this isn’t about Hamas.
Except Hamas is the government in Gaza and can setup pretty much whatever situation it wants to there, while it is hated in Israel outside of Gaza and would be prevented from taking an Israeli hospital and constructing elaborate tunnels under it. That’s kind of like saying “If Russia wants Ukraine so bad, why doesn’t it just take Kyiv?” Because it can’t. There’s a bunch of obstacles stopping it, otherwise it obviously would.
Who would think that in a war, the people opposing you would be treated differently than your own people? This is the reality of war and not specific to this conflict.
The question is do Jewish people expect mercy from the one above? Or do they think the lord is someone they’ll explain themselves to and is supposed to be their friend and just be like yeah sweet? Like imagine how disappointed that a higher power or super intelligence would be 🤣
Can’t tell if you’re just trying to sound ironically dumb or not?
Israel would storm it’s own hospital with troops as would any other country. Bombs were used in Gaza before there was security on the ground. Dropping special forces off in the middle of Hamas held territory would turn into Black Hawk Down 2
You think Israel would just let them take one of their hospital in the first place ? Why would that happen in the first place ? There would be an immediate military intervention , before they are deeply embedded
In Palestine tho, hamas does what it wants. And nobody is there to stop them. So they already are in the hospitals, and in the streets leading to hospital, and watching the neighborhood where those are.
Regardless if they find anything or not, intelligence suggests it’s worth a look
Is it physically impossible for terrorists to hide in a hospital? Or are you just a Hamas cheerleader?
Oh, look… more white supremacists have shown up to cover for their poor little white supremacist buddy!
Dude at that point it’s comically dumb. You don’t have to be a white supremacist to have an opinion on Middle East. You just make yourself look like a fool
Riiiight… it’s not like we already know that white supremacists are the ones swallowing the propaganda their precious white supremacist settler-colonial state feeds them hook, line and sinker, right?
You sound like a white supremacist. White supremacists normally hate Jews.
Hamas is just as bad as Israel. If Hamas had the upper hand they would be bombing the shit out of Israeli hospitals.
I don’t know how anyone could cheer for either of them. The only people I support are the innocent civilians in both places. Both regimes and their supporters need to fuck off into a thunderdome and kill each other off somewhere far away from the rest of civilization.
White supremacists normally hate Jews.
Yes, they do… and so does the Jewish white supremacists running Israel. After all… that is what a kapo truly is - a person trying to prove their “whiteness” by doing the bidding of white supremacists. Just like Israel is doing, isn’t it?
Hamas is just as bad as Israel.
Hamas is not a white supremacist settler-colonialist state, Clyde. Israel is - has been since 1949.
You know that most Israelis --like close to 60 percent-- are Mizrahi Jews, right? This means they are from the Middle East and have far more in common with Arabs in terms of ethnicity than they do with Europeans. To most American eyes they basically look Arab. And that’s only one reason why your white supremacy garbage doesn’t hold up.
You know that most Israelis gibber, gibber, blah, blah,blah
Who populates the upper echelons of the Israeli political and economic establishments, Clyde? Mizrahi Jewish folk? Or is it maybe a more… “westernized” and “whiter” group who happened to learn their white supremacism back in good ole’ Europe?
And that’s only one reason why your white supremacy garbage doesn’t hold up.
Bring your receipts, Clyde - let’s go. You don’t want to let your favorite white supremacist settler-colonialist state down, now would you?