“I feel like criticizing today.”
“You’ve been criticizing all week Dave, someone has to shovel the cow shit.”
If a society is to function people need to be doing the work that isn’t enjoyable as well as the work that’s enjoyable.
There’s likely not enough people that get genuine enjoyment out of being a garbage man or sewer maintenance worker for a world with everyone doing what they want to work.
You have to add incentives for the less desirable labour or else the system collapses under its own weight.
The USSR gave early retirement to those that worked undesirable jobs, pretty decent incentive. Having undesirable jobs doesn’t make Communism collapse.
Having undesirable jobs doesn’t make Communism collapse.
True, but it does show that the OP is just bullshit propaganda.
The solution capitalism gives us is that those jobs pay less. Any able-bodied person can clean toilets, so supply and demand results in little pay for cleaning toilets. However, those same people deserve a basic human life with food, shelter, and companionship, yet they are easily priced out of this. The “incentive” you speak of is the threat of starvation.
Communism actually recognizes this. Everyone pitches in to get the basic, necessary work done. This tends to be a lot less than generally expected. Most people today are not doing work that is necessary at all.
In my home town a sanitation worker makes double the provincial minimum wage and gets benefits. That’s an incentive for a job that has a low barrier to entry but undesirable labour.
The benefit of this system is that you can in fact choose this role instead of being assigned it based on the requirements of society. If the compensation isn’t tempting enough then the employer will increase the compensation until it makes sense. That’s how it’s supposed to work at the very least.
If the current implementation isn’t working then you address the issues with the implementation, you don’t tear it all down and try something completely different.
That’s nice. Does it work out that way for jobs with low barriers to entry across the board in your experience?
I have doubts.
Many communities in the USA don’t have garbage people. Everyone takes their garbage to the dump. There are people that work at the dump.
Someone does have to build and fix sewers, but no one has to clean another person’s toilet.
Also, no one only does pleasurable work, regardless of the economic system.
Everyone takes their garbage to the dump
What’s the carbon footprint on that?
Im starting to think marx may have been adhd
From a report from an anonymous German spy
"Washing, grooming and changing his linen are things he does rarely, and he likes to get drunk. Though he is often idle for days on end, he will work day and night with tireless endurance when he has a great deal of work to do. He has no fixed times for going to sleep and waking up. He often stays up all night, and then lies down fully clothed on the sofa at midday and sleeps till evening, untroubled by the comings and goings of the whole world. "
It’s funny how that imaginary Chad Stalin quote implies that you can’t do any of that stuff under capitalism, or that capitalism requires any person to be limited to “one sphere of activity.” In the USA we do have the freedom to choose to do any or all of that, and our only limitations towards doing them all are time and resources.
Lots of people have to work 40+ hours just to survive, that doesn’t leave much energy to do things other than your paid job. And you can’t just switch jobs willy nilly, pretty soon nobody would hire you anymore if your cv is full of jobs you’ve only held for a few weeks or months
Who runs a communist society? The people? Do we all take turns being president? What happens if it’s a bad dude’s turn and they don’t want to relinquish power?
No one said communism and limits on the government/a constitution are mutually exclusive (If your communist society even has a government, which technically they aren’t supposed to, not that I’ve seen any details on how that is supposed to work).
There is no law that says you can’t switch jobs whenever you want. We literally do have the freedom to do that within the framework of capitalism and the laws that govern the citizens of the USA. The reality of the situation is of course that employers generally don’t like that, but employers are not the government and they don’t own us. We still have our freedom to choose to pursue whatever we want for employment. These are generally good features of capitalist democracy - it’s also good that employers are free not to choose unreliable candidates.
You have the freedom, if you have money. Otherwise you don’t. You just have the freedom to be homeless and starve
That is generally how it works in most of the world, except for primitive hunter-gatherer societies that live beyond modern civilization.
Except that most countries do have social services to support the needy. If you are poor in the USA, you can get free food and free healthcare from local county governments.
Sooo… how does that relate to your point? That you can supposedly do what op is saying in America because freedom?
Right limited time and resources. You get more time and resources by earning more, quicker. You typically do that by becoming more skilled. You do THAT by… Specializing in one sphere of activity.
You absolutely can do whatever you want in a capitalist society, but let’s not pretend there’s no incentive to stick in one lane and specialize.
That’s just kind of how labor intrinsically works though. It’s not a capitalist thing.
No, it’s how specialization works. True, as you do one thing more, you get better at it. This inherently disincentivizes jumping around and learning multiple skills, if we tie that to earning ability within capitalism. This does not have to be how we assign value, or earning, however. We could do any number of things differently, to incentivize different things.
One radical idea just off the top of my head would be pegging earning to age. Specialists get to specialize if they love a particular thing, and it won’t hurt their earnings. Jack of all trades still finds earnings more aligned to their actual worth to society - flexibility. Right now, being an okay person at everything is pretty crappily rewarded, because you only earn more by doing something REALLY well.
Again, this is just off the top of my head. I don’t think it’s necessarily the way to reorganize earnings in our society. It’s just an example of how labor doesn’t necessarily intrinsically have to lead to specialization earning more.
A reminder - or possibly just some information - because I see this misconception so often. You can have money in communist or anarchist societies. You can reward shitty jobs, or even all jobs with money to be used for luxuries! This does not go against the principles of these social systems, despite what people often imagine. You may not have individuals racking up huge amounts of assets in the form of business empires, but you as an individual can still, idk, do work and use the output of that work to buy beer or whatever.
That is not to say that everyone will agree that these societies should have that… But just consider this before you make the “what about the sewage workers” argument.
I mean if you redefine communism, sure. But a communist society as described by Marx is moneyless, classless and with not central government. Because if all your needs are met and resources shared amongst the commune, what purpose would money serve?
People redefine capitalism every time it suits the rich folk, why can’t we redefine communism too?
If you ever play ‘communism has never been tried,’ based on a rigid definition, then no.
Communism is by definition moneyless
But yes anarchy is less prescriptive
Personally though I’m sceptical that money can be without hierarchy, or that the distinction between necessities and luxuries is all that meaningful, since it’s all very relative
